Obamacare Will Kill Medical Technology

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Obamacare Will Kill Medical Technology

Written By : Warner Todd Huston

In 2008 Patrick Swayze was treated with an advanced medical tool called a “CyberKnife.” It helped add months to his life as he tried to beat the cancer that was consuming him. But, Swayze wasn’t the only American with the good fortune to have this highly advanced medical technology available to him. In fact, there are 100 such machines across the United States. From California, to Minnesota, to Illinois and Washington D.C. Americans currently have the luxury of these wonderful new devices.

Sadly, Britons are not so lucky. There are two CyberKnife machines in the Britain, but they aren’t going to do anyone in the country’s socialist healthcare system any good because despite how successful these machines are British authorities won’t allow them to be used on patients.

Despite that the Mount Vernon cancer hospital in London is part of the National Health Services, despite that they spent £3m to purchase the machine, and quite despite the praise the machines receive in the U.S. and throughout the world, British NHS authorities won’t let NHS doctors use the machine on their patients.

Sadly, these heartless, uncaring socialist healthcare officials are uninterested in helping the estimated 10,000 British patients a year that could benefit from use of the CyberKnife. And why is this? Why, it’s because the treatments are expensive, of course.

You see money is far, far more important to Britain’s socialist healthcare system then patients.

As I said above, the U.S. is lucky to have many of these machines on our shores. In fact we have 100 of the 150 machines world-wide, all available for anyone that needs them. But this happy situation will not survive the implementation of America’s own socialist healthcare system when it institutes its rationing rules as the English have done. Sooner rather than later advanced tools like the CyberKnife will be eschewed as too expensive by Obamacre bean counters and such advanced technology will dwindle and wither away despite the lives it could save.

This is what is meant when it is said that Obamacare features death panels. After all, a socialist healthcare system that won’t pay for advanced technology because it’s just too darn expensive — just as is happening right now in England — is a defacto death panel.

And don’t imagine that this is just hyperbole. The same situation exists in nearly every country that has the kind of socialist healthcare that Barack Obama wants to force on the U.S.A. That’s why so many foreigners come to the U.S. for their advanced treatments. After all, one has to understand that there is a reason that America has 100 of the 150 machines that exist in the world today.

It is true that Obamacare does not provide for death panels in its legislation. But it doesn’t have to when its price control measures and rationing will eliminate the sort of life saving tools that technology will bring us, technology that Obamacare will destroy.

D-Vega

This cyberknife is available to anyone who needs it? Really?

Well then, let's order some more. Let's have one in every city in the country.

But wait, who will pay for it? And who will pay for someone who needs it but can't afford it? Oh, that's right. No one.

Because its not available to anyone who needs it, its available to anyone who can afford it.

mightysamurai

As opposed to what? Being available to nobody even if they can afford it?

Is that your idea of a “better” scenario?

D-Vega

Uh, no. The better scenario is what he originally said.

“available for anyone that needs them” Period.

Mr. EMT

How do you think hospitals get MRI machines? Think one patient that needed it bought it for themselves? Seriously keep your uneducated opinions to yourself, it would save me the strain of figuring out how lower my IQ far enough to be understood by your simian logic.

D-Vega

Try to make sense before you post, EMT. Have someone help you with the writing.
Mr. EMT

Went over your head huh little guy? I tried to make it simple enough for you to understand.
I'll make it a little easier.

The subject material being discussed exceeds your mental capabilities. Refrain from commenting until you meet the minimum education requirements needed to formulate a valid point concerning the healthcare industry.
Excluding glue and lead paint chips from your diet may help you retain knowledge drilled into your addled brain.
Rose

This is YOUR problem – you and your propaganda – trying to tell yourself that OdramaCare bulloney makes sense.

Mr. EMT is perfectly clear, even to someone like ME! Maybe because I have had a few surgeries and so what he says makes sense.

But you don't know the medical field, and you don't know free enterprise, you don't know business, whether large corporate or small family business, either, so you are clueless, and THUS what he says means nothing to you.
The medical field doesn't make any more sense to you than farming for food crops does. Because you don't have the foggiest idea how it works.

That is what I dearly love about the way DIMS choose their enemies, THESE DAYS. heheheheheh

I want to see all you Dims feed yerselves when the rubber hits the road, by spending time in University classrooms with Marxist Professors in “Liberal Fine Arts” and “ETHNIC DIVERSITY” class studies with folks like Ward Churchill and William Ayers, and Joel Rogers, and Shirley MacLaine, et al. hehehehehehe Too funny!
Rose

Mr. EMT, you said to D-Vega, “How do you think”?

THAT is what I would like to know.

It is hard to believe that he and everyone he has a personal relationship is so healthy, and jobless, that he knows NOT A SINGLE PERSON involved on one side or the other of the Health Care issues, that he has ROOM to be THAT clueless.

And if the health care stuff was in the “CRISIS” he is trying to help Odrama Queen promote that there is, WHY WOULD HE THINK ANYONE READING HIS STUFF is too stupid to know what silly guff he is talking?

mightysamurai

Well far be it for me to intrude on your liberal fantasy but that's just not ever going to happen. The best that can be done is to make things as available as possible. And since the empirical evidence shows that socialized medicine does the opposite of that, I'd say your support for it is rather silly.
Rose

Dose the Dim Party REQUIRE you to spit out their DIM MARXIST Propaganda in a manner designed to make you look the most incapable of THOUGHT?

Mr. EMT

You are a moron that has no opinion of value concerning the medical field.

D-Vega

Bite me.
illmunkeys

And you sir, should let mightysamurai speak for you. Insults are unbecoming in any debate.

Mr. EMT

It wouldn't feel insulting if it was not true huh?

illmunkeys

When a debater begins attacking his opponent personally, rather than defending his own argument or poking holes in his opponents argument, it usually means he's run out of pretty much anything useful to say on the subject.

Frankly, insults in political debate crack me up. The purpose of debate is to convince people that you're right. In this case, every insult a conservative heaps on Vega probably convinces him more and more that the conservative route is completely bogus.

Stick to your guns and attack the issue, never the person.
homerfobe

Stick to your guns and attack the issue, never the person./blockquote>

Isn't that SOP for liberals losing an argument due to facts presented they have no answer for? Identify, polarize, marginalize and ridicule. Saul Alinsky playbook. You know you're in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent when the ad hominem attacks come. That's all they got!
Mr. EMT

Frankly, insults in political debate crack me up. The purpose of debate is to convince people that you're right.

I do not have to convince anyone.
I have told the child, the stove is hot, enough. He has continuously touched the stove. Yes I think the child has a form of mental retardation to continue burning himself on the stove.

In this case, every insult a conservative heaps on Vega probably convinces him more and more that the conservative route is completely bogus.
And the more he says so the more amusement I get from watchnig the child do something so stupid repeatedly.
My only concern is that I grow bored and ignore the mental retard.
Mr. EMT

Oh, forgot to mention few other facts of life.
Civility went out the window when a public organizing racist commie was elected president.
Debate ended when the health care bill passed.

tblrk2006

This thread has allowed you to demonstrate what a TOTAL lack of understanding a person can have about health care and insurance. What a tool.

Vega, this clown votes for the same people you do……very telling.
Rose

It may look like insults to you – looks like COMPLIMENTS TO ME! High Flattery indeed.

Time has passed when Conservatives are just gonna swallow Dim Bullarky and Dim abuse, with a spoonful of sugar and pretend someone in the parlor just handed us a nice cup of fresh herbal tea with a cinnamon stick in it!

If you are worried about Mr. EMT's words, where shall I find YOUR posts regarding DIM SWASTIKAS AND ROCKS, BOTTLES AND TORCHES this last week? All over the NATION!!! AND THE DIM FALSE ACCUSATIONS ABOUT BOMBERS OF CHILDREN!!!

Show me YOUR personal strident urgency for GOOD MANNERS, THERE! PLEASE!

Rose

D-Vega, THAT was STUPID! And NOT true. When a hospital, or clinic or Dr's business gets something like that, because they have a need for it, then they use it for thousands of other cases, partly to keep up the practice, partly to train others in how to use it, and to help pay down the cost of it so it gets cheaper over a shorter period of time.

It's pretty hard to believe you are TOO STUPID to know that, and that all this RANT was not merely POLITICAL PROPAGANDA SPAMMING.

If there were enough of us out here to be THAT ignorant, you couldn't sell any needed health care improvement stuff ANYWAY – EITHER!

You ACT like you THINK you are like a Gypsy CON ARTIST talking solely to little 98yr old couples with NO FAMILY OR FRIENDS, telling them to let you rip off their roof and life savings and just because you think they think you are cute and charming, they will go for it.

THIS IS NOTHING BUT DIM SCAM – and you ain't makin' any STUPID sales, today. As in, “STUPID” isn't movin' well on the market at this time.

If Odrama's administration fell into the deepest chasm of an earthquake the world has ever seen – nothing would come of it BUT GOOD STUFF!

And NO! THAT ain't any stupid THREAT, because the fact is, Christians know if we do stupid things then God takes it out on US and NOT on our enemies, but if WE back off unless He says otherwise, HE has BETTER SOLUTIONS for GREATER JUSTICE. And honey, I don't know a soul that would deprive God Almighty of dealing with any idiot dumb enough to spit in His EYE – the APPLE of His Eye, straight to His FACE!

This is when WE do like God's people in Numbers 16, and all the prisoners in “Alice's Restaurant”, and we move WAY OVER ON THE OTHER SIDE as FAR OVER ON THE OTHER SIDE as WE can get, and like Numbers 16, WE JUST WATCH AND WAIT to see a NEW THING THE EARTH HAS NEVER SEEN BEFORE!
And we WATCH! With BIG OL' EYES PEELED!
Christopher_Taylor

The whole point of the Government Health Insurance Takeover act was to make health care available to everyone and stop these horror stories like you on the left love to tell. Now suddenly its okay to restrict care to those who can afford it when the government is in charge? Pathetic.

illmunkeys

You are just spouting hyperbole.

What isn't hyperbole is how insurance companies already have created a death panel of their own. Case in point: the Wellpoint breast cancer fiasco. As soon as that story leaked, Wellpoint immediately ended rescission and will be instituting 3rd party validation of terminated health care insurance. Its about time. Without the Health Care Bill, this would have never happened.

Blue Cross and Blue Shield admitted to “saving” billions of dollars by having a policy of rescinding first, ask questions later. They in fact praised their employees for finding inventive ways to cut someone after they were sick.

Those same stories that exist in Europe, about denied coverage or poor care, exist here. I read an article once were socialized medicine has long waits for surgeries because of the # of people who apply for it. In America, we don't have long lines because the people who need it don't even bother applying – they can't afford the procedure.

I don't care whether or not you support ObamaCare. Health care reform had to happen. Now that something is passed (and it has… problems) lets stop monkeying around with how its going to bankrupt us or scream about death panels and baby killings. Lets talk about how we can make the Health Care Bill something better. We're a bunch monkeys in a cage throwing shit at one another.

Solzhenitsyn

Another awful argument.

You do realize that the current entitlements that we have will kill this country if left unchecked? Yet you are perfectly OK with saddling us with another. Then you don't want us to correctly state that this will bankrupt the county.

It must be nice to be so delusional to just be happy that we did something even though the majority were against and it has been admitted that it won't do a thing to stop premiums from increasing.

“The current system isn't fair!” “Wah!” What a garbage argument. There are waiting lists because in socialist countries they ration care because that is how they cut costs. We will soon see that.

I'm not interested in trying to turn a giant sh!t sandwich into a smaller sh!t sandwich. There are real reforms that would've worked and this isn't going to do it.

illmunkeys

The majority elected Obama under the knowledge that he wanted Health Care Reform and that his ideas for health care reform were better than the other guys who just traipsed around screaming death panels and baby killers. I'm not delusional: the man said he would rate his success on this one fact alone.

Ultimately, it doesn't even matter what the majority want at any particular time. The “mob” is fickle and moves with the sweep of the tide. As Newt reminded us: after the civil rights vote, the majority pretty much unanimously ousted everyone who voted for it. Guess what? Every one of those ousted representatives did exactly what they were supposed to do: made our country better at the cost of their next election.

I think health care reform will be one of our greatest accomplishments – if we can just get people to working out the kinks.

mightysamurai

The majority elected Obama under the knowledge that he wanted Health Care Reform

Except he doesn't want to “reform” healthcare. Just because he calls it “reform” doesn't mean he's actually reforming anything.

What he's doing is taking over the healthcare system by making it harder for private healthcare to operate. Soon government will be the only option we have to turn to, and all the government will have to offer is substandard care and outdated technologies.
Solzhenitsyn

I don't even know if it is possible to reason with people that think like this. Was SS a great accomplishment? How about Medicare?

Sure Obama ran on reforming health care but he wasn't specific at all except for the overlooked videos where he stated his allegiance to a single payer system. Obama didn't even write or have an ounce of input on this legislation.

Why are we forced to work the kinks out now? WTF is Congress good for? Why did we have to pass it so quickly without bipartisan support? Why couldn't we have made it better BEFORE we passed it.

You can say what you want about the mob. People elect representatives and senators to do their bidding and vote as they tell them. That is they way a democracy works. You aren't supposed to be elected then just do as you see fit.

illmunkeys

Representatives don't do our bidding. The representative system, electoral system, and length of term are meant to help distance our democracy from one that is a pure direct democracy. Why? Because direct democracy ultimately ends pure folly.

Don't vote for a politician you can push around – vote for politicians that stand and believe for something and who can think independently of the mob around them. Alas, everyone who runs for office is wishy-washy on pretty much everything.
mightysamurai

Representatives don't do our bidding.

What?! WTF are you talking about? What is it about the term “Representative” that somehow escapes you?

A Representative is supposed to represent the wishes of his/her constituents. If they defy the wishes of their constituents, whom pray tell are they “representing”?
illmunkeys

Actually, a representative is supposed to have a firm set of personal beliefs and uphold them. As a voter, should I agree with his beliefs and goals, I vote for him. This is very different definition that yours: you define a panderer. And frankly, if we are just going to vote panderers in office, why not just go to direct voting on all issues?

Usually, you're right: a representative will represent the wishes of his constituents most of the time.

However, history is full of great moments when the mob swayed politicians into doing foolish things. And history is full of even greater moments, when politicians took a stand against their own constituents.
Solzhenitsyn

Representatives are supposed to vote how their constituents tell them to vote. Otherwise what is the point of our system? It's not for little dictators to run around and do as they please.

They govern by the will of the people not against.
illmunkeys

When the majority of the people wanted to continue the status quo of slavery, it should have been allowed?

When the majority of people ousted the party that voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1960 – they should have bowed their heads and said, you know, this civil rights thing is crap!

In 1867, following the majority of the “voting” population at the time, congress enacted the 14th amendment, which was the 1st amendment to identify any one group by gender. It defined citizens as males just to stem the tide of all those women wanting to vote.

To really rub this in, I can state that a simple majority prefers a public option.

Seriously. I can go on.
Solzhenitsyn

You could go on if slavery wasn't against the constitution. That is your best argument, that the majority wanted slavery? Could you also provide polls showing the majority wanted slavery?

Show me some proof of your claims that they majority wanted this or was against that.
mightysamurai

Actually, a representative is supposed to have a firm set of personal beliefs and uphold them.

You want that go live on some lord's fiefdom. Here in America, we have this thing called “democracy” where politicians do what the people want rather than whatever they damn well please. That's why we call them “representatives” rather than “lords” or “barons”. Because they're supposed to represent us rather than themselves.
Solzhenitsyn

I love how when Bush wrongly didn't listen to the will of the people he was a stubborn idiot that was too stupid to listen. Now when they don't listen that is what they're supposed to do.

I'm astounded that you think representatives are supposed to do as they see fit instead of listening to the will of the people.
Rose

That is a LIE!

REVISIONIST BULLARKY to say a REPRESENTATIVE and PUBLIC SERVANT is supposed to do whatever HE thinks AND NOT TO REPRESENT!

Henry Clay – An oppressed people are authorized, whenever they can, to rise and break their fetters.

Alexander Hamilton: No legislative act contrary to the Constitution can be valid. To deny this would be to affirm that the deputy (agent) is greater than his principal; that the servant is above the master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people; that men, acting by virtue of powers may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid. It is not to be supposed that the Constitution could intend to enable the representatives of the people to substitute their will to that of their constituents. A Constitution is, in fact, and must be regarded by judges as fundamental law. If there should happen to be a irreconcilable variance between the two, the Constitution is to be preferred to the statute.

“There are two ways to acquire the niceties of life: to produce them or to plunder them. When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.” – Frederic Bastiat
illmunkeys

And it is possible to reason with me. You might not convince me you're right, but I read right-wing blogs and left-wing blogs and pretty much everyone-in-between blogs. Not because I agree with everything any of them say, but because each of them has a kernel of truth that I take for my own.

Mr. EMT

I think health care reform will be one of our greatest accomplishments – if we can just get people to working out the kinks.

There would be less kinks if people who didn't know what they were talking about, would mind their own business.
Rose

When you speak of Odrama Care as an accomplishment, there is only one thing on EARTH you can POSSIBLY be referring to and that is the DIM PLATFORM/STALINIST AGENDA published in the Congressional Record on January 10, 1963 FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Guess who Glenn Beck played video of, today, and will have many more days of video on? hehehehehehe

JOEL ROGERS

“ROGERS: On the dimensions what attracts me about the opportunity is not just its size, which is difficult to overstate, but the fact that given its extent, it really extends our politics from just a redistributive politics into the organization of the economy itself. It really is concerned with production.”

hehehehehehe Sweet Daylight. hehehehehe

mightysamurai

Oh great. Another silly child who thinks denying insurance coverage is the same as denying access to healthcare.

illmunkeys

If you can't afford it, you don't get it.

If you've paid your dues to an insurance company and then they cut you when you get sick, and you can't afford to pay your own way or don't qualify for government care… that's denied access to healthcare.

Sure, if they need an ER visit the hospital will swallow the bill per law.

But Chemo? Liver transplant?

mightysamurai

If you can't afford it, you don't get it.

Again, how is this better than the socialized medicine alternative where you nobody can get it regardless if they can afford it?

Wouldn't you rather some people have their lives saved by advanced medical technology? Or is your hatred of the rich so extreme that you would deny it to everyone just so they won't be allowed to benefit from it?

illmunkeys

I think I may have been pre-emptive in telling Mr. Emt to let you speak for him. That's the second time you've tried to belittle me with “child”.

Denial of coverage or lack of funds boils down to denial of treatment until the big one hits.

What really bothers me, and what no one on your side of the argument seems to get, is that when an insurance drops these patient's who need treatment…. all of them eventually end in an ER. Then they declare bankruptcy after a desperate family taps themselves dry to help fund the treatments. Then they end back up in the ER. Then they die. Every ER visit from the moment they can't afford to pay is picked up by us, the taxpayers.
mightysamurai

I think I may have been pre-emptive in telling Mr. Emt to let you speak for him. That's the second time you've tried to belittle me with “child”.

Stop acting like a child and I'll stop treating you like one.

Denial of coverage or lack of funds boils down to denial of treatment until the big one hits.

See, there you go again with that child-like behavior.

How do you think medicine works, exactly? Do you think pharmaceutical drugs become magically ineffective if a patient's health insurance runs out? If a surgeon or an MD is confronted by a patient without insurance do they just stand there dumbfounded, completely at a loss as to how to treat them?
illmunkeys

Disagreeing with someone is not “acting like a child” unless I've been warped back to my 8-year old self.
mightysamurai

Disagreeing with someone is not “acting like a child”

No, holding child-like notions about how the world works is.

Seriously, how are you not getting this? “Insurance” and “care” are not the same thing. We did in fact have medical care before the advent of health insurance. Shocking I know, but it's true.
illmunkeys

Seriously, how are you not getting this:

No money to pay for services = no services.

And I think I'm parroting myself in this particular thread.
mightysamurai

No money to pay for services = no services.

And since when is insurance the only way to pay for medical care? Last I checked we have this fascinating substance called “cash” that can be exchanged for goods and services.

Plenty of people all over the country pay out of pocket for medical care and they do just fine.
illmunkeys

It seems to me are you asking doctors and hospitals to swallow the cost of the treatment.

Without payment (of some kind), the doctor can't afford to treat a patient. Should he swallow the cost, he has to come up with another way: this translates into higher bills for everyone else.

So, unless its an ER visit and federally mandated for the physician to treat the patient, a physician will refuse.

Therefore, denial of coverage, spiraled into denial of treatment.
mightysamurai

It seems to me are you asking doctors and hospitals to swallow the cost of the treatment.

If that's what I meant then that's what I would've said. Since I didn't say that, well it's obviously not what I meant, now is it?
Mr. EMT

It seems to me are you asking doctors and hospitals to swallow the cost of the treatment.
Obama's health care package is going to be asking them to do that.
The only reason a fraction of the healthcare industry (admin and insurers such as AARP) supported obamacare is that they were promised if the bill passed they would have a more steady cash flow. Instead of dealing with indigent who couldn't, or people who just wouldnt pay what they owe, the government would pay instead.

Problems: the government sets the rate at which they payment per treatment will be
patients can still sue
Hospitals and providers will still have to carry liability insurance.
Doctors will be told what treatments they can and can't do, regardless of ethics.
Rose

You are fortunate that Mighty Samurai has FLATTEREED you, a vicious Marxist MURDEROUS THIEF, by insinuating that you don't know what you are talking about.
I'm older and have seen too many Malignant Narcisists in my day, whether they are MARXISTS or not – like yourself.
I too, used to think they were naive and stupid.

But I have seen them demonstrate their cold-hearted, blood-thirsty jealousy and greed far too many times with absolutely no shred of compassion or mercy on the wide, deep, Katrina-style wake of damage they leave in their path.

Now, at some point, someone trying to so “benevolently” help others, genuinely, will at some point look around to survey all the “accomplishment” of their “benevolent mercy” on others, and realize they are NOT benevolent and merciful Florence Nightingales, but the WRECKING BALL ON A CRANE that NOBODY ORDERED!
And STOP!
And try to FIX and REPAIR, and DO MIGHTY WORKS OF REPENTANCE and RESTITUTION.

BUT YOU DIM MARXIST TYRANTS WILL NOT!
As Odrama Queen has fully demonstrated, YOU ONLY DOUBLE DOWN , and RE-DOUBLE DOWN, and QUADRUPLE DOWN, and EXPONENTIALLY INCREASE all your damage, in ALL your ways.

THAT isn't “CHILDISH”! That is not ignorance or naivete.

That is raging jealous envy on a rampage.

THAT is what you are. And before you get your panties in a wad, THIS IS A KINDNESS that I BLUNTLY tell you the truth about you, same as a doctor who tells you straightforwardly about Cancer and Gangrene.

And speaking of GANGRENE, this stage of MARXIST GARBAGE is definitely at the stage where not only is the patient dying, but the building will have to be burned to cleanse it.

I don't think your Dim Marxist party can survive this garbage. But it is definitely time for it to be thrown overboard, post haste.
illmunkeys

I have no ill will towards the rich.

In fact, I support many arguments that the rich, conservative, and libertarian folks urge. Just as an example, in my argument against Arizona's crappy invasive law, I proposed we introduce a federal sales tax (which essentially translates into a flat tax) and eliminate income tax. This would force any illegal worker to pay the same tax you or I do (minus SS and medicare, of course). You don't see many liberals espousing this view because they believe (falsely) that the tax would be regressive.
mightysamurai

I have no ill will towards the rich.

Yet your whole argument for socialized medicine is essentially “the rich might benefit from from this, so no one should have it!”

A strange argument for someone who claims not to hate rich people.
illmunkeys

Its the classic lets put words in his mouth trick! Phenomenal.
mightysamurai

Its the classic lets put words in his mouth trick!

How am I putting any words in your mouth?

You oppose privatized healthcare because some people may or may not be denied treatment based on ability to pay. Your solution to this alleged “problem” is to deny treatment to everyone.

You are willing to deny everyone access to lifesaving medical treatments because you're upset that people with more money can afford more things than people with less money.

The rich can get it, therefore nobody should get it. That is your argument. I defy you to prove otherwise.
illmunkeys

No, I support a combination of socialized insurance options and private insurance options. These work phenomenally well.
http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

Where and provide specific examples that are comparable to the quality and ease of care received in the US up to now.
mightysamurai

No, I support a combination of socialized insurance options and private insurance options.

Ah yes, the public “option” that ultimately makes it impossible for private insurance to function and eventually forces everyone onto the government dole.

Brilliant plan there, son.
Rose

WHERE does your formula work PHENOMENALLY WELL? TOWARDS WHAT AGENDA AND WHICH GOALS OF THAT AGENDA?

If you have Hitler's and Stalin's Agenda, ACTION T4 is a solution.

One of my friends was in the line of infantry FIRST to Dachau, WW2, walking into the wind, 6 miles, arriving after the guards left, before the gates were opened, and hurting humanity began pressing eachother into the barbed wire trying to get a glimpse of the American “Calvary to the rescue!” and he didn't like the smell of YOUR CURRENT Health Care plan THEN, and he doesn't like it NOW. WHERE WILL ANYONE LOOK FOR THE CALVARY TO THE RESCUE AFTER THIS?

EXACTLY WHERE YOU WANT THEM TO??? NOWHERE????

IF you are NOT Hitler and Stalin, please explain where OTHER has been accomplished USING THEIR METHODS.

Boy, the BRITISH HEADLINES are full of examples these days.

You have some TALL explaining to do. Because people aren't going to walk over a cliff for you, and you aren't going to like it.
Rose

Substitute a Constitutional Law for a MARXIST TAX and that will FIX anything for the security of CITIZENS of the USA?

See, this is what I mean about you NOT being CHILDISH. CHILDISH wouldn't ever “think” that MARXISM IN AND CONSTITUTION OUT would HELP CITIZENS be SAFER from DIM ALLIES.

Ask a CHILD if that is the way they would be safe from a schoolyard bully that the teacher will not stop from hurting them, but WILL arrest the child for protecting themselves from, instead – so if YOU tax the child and the bully, but give the union teacher a raise, and make sure the child's parent loses their job, then will the child feel safer?

See, you are not childish at all! In ANY way whatsoever!
http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/C2UYYYSPBB7S3NC3NQ7NOJFLME Peter

Your ignorance of socialized medicine knows no bounds. Do yourself a favor and pull yourself away from Fox and go to Vancouver. Beautiful city, wonderful people, socialized medicine.

Solzhenitsyn

I've already talked about this before. I am not for insurance companies pulling those shenanigans. Why doe me being against Obamacare mean I'm for insurance companies screwing people over.

If you're current on your premiums the insurance companies shouldn't be dropping you period. I'm not arguing that at all.

Mr. EMT

How to make the healthcare bill that passed… better.
Destroy it, start over beginning with tort reform. No more law suits, enforce criminal laws.
Eradicate health insurance, totally.
Establish credit accounts with hospitals where an account can be opened in place of a health insurance policy so hospitals get money direct from a patient, instead of government and insurance. Let employers open or contribute to those accounts as a benefits package, which would also open a way to remove workers comp taxes.
Want me to continue?
Ask any doctor what would happen to the cost of health care if you take away insurance companies and law suits.

Fail baby Fail

The CBO says fixing tort reform will save less than one percent. Congrats you fixed nothing. Your next solution is to close down insurance companys. The first argument about government take over of health care by the right. It would put insurance companys out of business. So you feel health care should not be about profit? Or at least not health insurance profit? We on the left feel the same way.

Solzhenitsyn

The CBO also said that Medicare would cost something like 10% of what it currently does. They're not reliable.
Mr. EMT

Yeah, umm not interested in what a biased party estimates the cost would be considering it benifits them to screw up the books.
Like i said, ask a doctor what the cost of going to them would be if they knew they could not get sued and therefor did not need malpractice insurance.
Rose

That just ain't bright. Talk to any dozen doctors and see what kinds of Liability Insurance they have to carry because of FRIVOLOUS lawsuits and see what kind of LEGAL protection they have against FRIVOLOUS lawsuits.

THEN came back and tell us that would only amount to “less than one percent” of the cost of medical care.

Then look at ANYTHING ELSE the GOVT has taken over.

Look at State and Fed PARKS, and see what happened between the time the GOVT let the parks keep ALL gate receipts, etc, for Park upkeep, and what happened when the park started making enough to show a profit and pour the money into improvements, and maintain “the facilities” properly, and the govt decided the parks could afford to operate well on a tighter budget and they would just put all the money in the General Fund “for safe keeping”.

Ditto GASOLINE TAX, STATE LOTTERIES, the POST OFFICE, SCHOOLS, UNIVERSITIES, the way STREETS AND STREET REPAIRS get handled.

You name it and you can see where back when GOVT was NOT “operating” it, it thrived, and now it does NOT.
NOT enough MONEY in the GASOLINE TAX for ROADS? CHECK THE BUDGET AND SEE HOW MUCH CAME IN – HOW M UCH OF THAT IS SPENT ON ROADS.

Everyone you are talking to here has FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE with SOME aspect of that. Especially those of us with kids in Public Schools.

You have no credibility.
You've had 60 years to prove yourself to America, and BOY HAVE YOU EVER!

Just like the LATEST REPORT on the 1970 KENT STATE SHOOTING.

OH, YOU DIDN'T HEAR ABOUT THAT YET?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/04…

illmunkeys

If a hospital opens a line of credit to every patient, the hospital is essentially swallowing all the risk of operating. Such a thing is doomed to failure.

I agree in somewhat with limiting lawsuits (malpractice itself is only 1% of the cost of medicine). In another post, I detail that the true cost is defensive medicine (5-10% estimated): doctors order unnecessary tests and start treatments before validation because the fear of lawsuit and the risk the patient will leave and go to the next doctor.

Mr. EMT

Operating a hospital with out risk is failure?
Seriously? LoL.
Do you pay for health insurance or have it deducted from your wages? Imagine that cost being given instead to a hospital.
Hospitals already open a credit account for people who have outstanding bills, most hospitals accept payments as low as 5 dollars a month for as long as it takes as long as the payments keep coming. (a fact that somehow never gets mentioned by politicians since they dont know what the hell they are talking about.) Think hospitals wouldn't be tickled with getting my 60 bucks a month from my wages instead of giving it to an insurance company instead?
Especially since the last time I had a doctors visit was over 15 years ago for a health check up.

illmunkeys

No, operating a hospital with the hospital being responsible for all the operating risk is failure. Seriously. Go back and read my post.

And how would you determine which hospital my wages go to? Is it the local hospital? Frankly, if I have a cardiac problem and someone attempts to take me to the local hospital I'm going to do my damn best to jump out and take a cab to the one a little further away. I travel to the next state over – am I going to have to hoof it back to my local hospital, or is hospital I'm closest to going to forgive anything I can't pay them? You're being ridiculous. The reason why we pay insurance companies to pay hospitals is because we like to choose which hospital or which doctor to go see. So, we pay an intermediary a fee, who then pays out to whichever hospital or doctor I tell them to. Hospitals don't like ER visits from self-payers – we have a saying: a self payer is only a self payer when they're Amish.

That's awesome Mr. Emt that you haven't needed a physician in 15 years. However, most people really aren't that lucky. They get infections, illnesses, organs fail, parasites invade, and cells mutate into killer little shit-boxes that spit out more killer little shit-boxes. If you paid a hospital $60/month, you would only cover the tip of the iceberg for the cost of the latter illness.
Mr. EMT

People are taken to hospitals not suited for the care they need all the time.
Guess what? They get transferred.
Meantime in your hypothetical little world where you took a cab because your cardiac “problem” made you think you needed a hospital…
When you found out you were going to the nearest, you freaked, your anxiety level went through the roof, you jumped out of a moving vehical speeding down the highway rolled for 200 feet crashed through a fence, stood up in a daze wondered into the highway got hit by a tractor semi which threw you another hundred feet. Ambulance picked you up began treating you, you ended up at the hospital you were afraid you were going to go to anyway. They helocoptered you out because of how effed up you were. You end up at a level 1 trauma center with some guy like me sticking his finger up your butt to see if you are bleeding out. Your heart problem is worse now and we are shoving tubes up you in you out you everywhere we can fit one.
You are on a respirator with eight IV drips hanging off your arms, neck, feet, in your shins, wherever we could get an IV established. Your chest has been cracked open… and hey all those elective procedures you have been worried about are the furthest thing from your mind!

Rose

You forget how much of that load is already taken up by CHARITIES.
Folks have friends, relatives, bake sales, local churches, big organized charities, fundraisers, Wealthy people looking for special occasions for Good Will Advertising.
And you also forgot bartering. Our small town used to always have a couple of community patrons who if not able to shoulder a charity case, could always be counted on to help work out some kind of barter, for goods or services, to pay for medical expenses that someone else with more stuff than cash might need.

You Dims act like there are no RELATIONSHIPS left in the world! NOTHING but HITLER AND STALIN'S STYLE OF BENEVOLENCE EXISTING.

You act like we are deep in another Dark Ages.

But we know that actually, THAT is where you are trying to PUT us. Haven't figured out how you intend to be comfortable there with nothing to comfort YOU but the abysmal misery of others, but we know you can do it.
You also forgot special opportunities at medical schools, and for “Medical
Study cases” that PAY PATIENTS to participate and well as given all medical treatment and medications, travel expenses, etc, and then there are Prescription trials, and semi-retired doctors with slashed rates.
Plus I have seen a lot of cases where bosses of tiny enterprises, handful or less of employees, have shouldered entire burdens of medical care solely, because of the value of the employee, for an employee or family member.

Rose

Wrong target audience. This is entirely Dim Marxist BULLARKY.

You cannot sell that Propaganda to people with the barest smattering of knowledge about the Medical field.
You KNOW that is why Odrama Queen's numbers are plummeting, with NO BOUNCE for the HC bill signing, like HE was dumb enough to think – NOT EVEN FROM HIS OWN BASE!

We all know all your code words for ILLEGAL ALIEN ENTITLEMENTS TO HELP LEECH ON CITIZEN TAXPAYER DOLLARS, by now! DRAIN OUR MONEY, DRAIN OUR POLITICAL POWER, ROAD TO CRUSH AMERICA Agenda.

Even Gypsy roofing contractors know enough to run for the hills when the 98yr old grannies' CHILDREN come listen to yer schpeil.

Solzhenitsyn

Seriously Vega? That is your argument? It would be great if everyone could afford the best of everything and it wouldn't cost anyone a dime.

Unfortunately we live in an imperfect world where despite the facts that we are born with equal rights we are not born equal in terms of intelligence, looks, family situations.

Denying everyone the chance at a life saving procedure just because some can't afford it is complete lunacy. It is unfair that we can't all get equal medical care but we all can't be LeBron James or Bill Gates or (shudder) Barack Obama either. The entitlement mentality is going to sink this country.

Life ain't fair…tough sh!t. The sooner you accept that the better.

illmunkeys

And denying someone a life-saving procedure because they can't afford it is morally bankrupt as well.

Solzhenitsyn

Like I said in an ideal world it would be great for everyone to have the health care access that Barack Obama gets. Also in an ideal world no one would get cancer or AIDS or be poor or live on the streets. We live in a very imperfect world. I'm not saying we should just stop trying to improve the current situation but we should also be realistic.

I'm not advocating for denying of services but I am realistic. Medicare is the leader or denying care. Obamacare will not make it better. You will be “approved” but will die waiting for the procedure.

Is that any less morally bankrupt? Letting people languish and die as they wait?

illmunkeys

Ultimately, the true goal of health care is thus: to create affordable healthcare for every US citizen.

Obama covers the “every US citizen” (and then some) but forgets about affordable. However, his win was a blunt instrument into forcing everyone to scramble on how to pay for it.

How can we make healthcare affordable. I have a two-step program:

1. The majority of health care costs is an overabundance of health care. In other words, defensive medicine. The conservative plan to minimize the risk of malpractice lawsuits may help. This could be a savings of 5-10%. But I think a combination of pairing best practice and payment may be our best hope of reducing defensive medicine.

2. The second step is preventative care. ER visits and hospital stays are expensive. Quality of Care, not diagnosis-based billing, needs to be implemented for preventative care to take root. Most preventative care is not coverable. Obama, in his blunt instrument approach, has solved the other issue with preventing ER visits: basic care for everyone.

Solzhenitsyn

Commanding people to buy insurance is completely unconstitutional. If they can demand that we buy insurance why not a car or a house or life insurance…etc.

That is the absolute worst part of the plan. Providing affordable assurance is a noble goal but Obamacare does not do anything to stop rising costs.

Are you willing to have this country go bankrupt while we “work out the kinks?” It will happen.

If this approach was so great then why is Romneycare in so much trouble? Obamacare is basically a national version of Romneycare and Romneycare is bankrupting Mass.

You're the perfect person to learn from this quote:

The study of history is a powerful antidote to contemporary arrogance. It is humbling to discover how many of our glib assumptions, which seem to us novel and plausible, have been tested before, not once but many times and in innumerable guises; and discovered to be, at great human cost, wholly false.

–Paul Johnson

If we want to be faux Western Eropean than be prepared to castrate our national defense to the point that we can't defend ourselves.

You do realize why Canada and the rest of socialize care states can afford it right? We protect them. Socialism has failed everywhere it's been implemented.

It's a great system though everyone else just did it wrong. We'll do it right this time though I'm sure. Look at the EU. They're doing so swell right now. I really hope we can emulate the likes of Greece, Spain, and Portugal.
illmunkeys

Again, you ignored that I agreed that Obama ignored the “affordable” portion of the goal.

I just don't agree that we can't make it affordable. A single hospital using preventative care for children's asthma was able to reduce ER visits by a whopping 60%. They were able to reduce hospitalization by an even more admirable 80%. Imagine if we applied preventative care across all preventable and chronic illnesses across all the residents in America. ER visits and hospitalizations are expensive and usually unnecessary. The only way to keep people out of them is to keep them healthy and the only way to keep them healthy is to provide them with a way to visit a doctor every once in a while.
Solzhenitsyn

We could make it affordable but unless Obamacare gets repealed we will never be able to reign in costs.

It still astounds me that you think it is a good plan but you acknowledge that it will still probably bankrupt us.

http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

Well exept that doesn't happen very frequentlyt in the US, because insurance companies can and are held liable for such things, who is going to hold the Fed liable?

Solzhenitsyn

This is another great argument. Who holds the Fed responsible. Where do you go when they're the only game in town?

Are you going to sue them? They have unlimited resources. At least when WellsPoint pulls some crap people flip out and WellsPoint is shamed into making the situation right. You can't shame the Fed into doing something.

illmunkeys

You can shame the gov't and you can continue to oust officials until they fix it. This Wellpoint fiasco didn't happen overnight: calls for third party auditors has been requested for _decades_.

Health care reform forced them into this. Recision without 3rd party auditors was slated to take effect anyway. Wellpoint used this as an to try and deflect criticism and to try and say it wasn't the law that did it, but their own moral high ground.
Solzhenitsyn

You cannot shame the gov't. You cannot fight the government. You realize that the Fed considers themselves sovreign right? They decide who can sue and what you can sue for.

If a gov't run system is so great then why does Medicare reimburse so little and deny so much? Why is Medicare going to bankrupt this country? Why do you fail to see the failures of Gov't run health care?

You should read Hawkin's latest Townhall article. If the answer to our problems was more gov't involvement then there'd be no poor right now no hunger no AIDS and we'd be less dependent on foreign oil not more.

mightysamurai

More morally bankrupt than denying it to everyone because it overtaxes the socialized medical system?
Mr. EMT

That does not happen now. It is against the law to deny emergency care to someone.
However, what was it obama said? Maybe they need to just take a pill?

illmunkeys

Not all life saving procedures are emergency room visits. Many of them are elective until the moment your body craps out and you die in the ER.

Mr. EMT

Right, go to your politician and ask them for the money they get from tax payers so you can have an “elective” procedure. I'm sure you will get results faster than you can say, “act of congress”
I'm not sure what kind of definition you apply to terms such as: elective, life saving, and experimental.
Honestly I could care less since it is very misinformative. I have encountered too many people who were not insured and didn't have funds to afford medical procedures to prolong their life due to illness disease or injury.
The hospital system i work out of is half operated by corperation, and half non profit to work with people who find themselves in crises and can not afford to pay for what they need to continue to live.
I can name countless other organizations and charities that work with needy to make sure they get procedures they wouldnt otherwise be able to afford, most of them are faith based too.
Over 60% of the hospitals across America are christian hospitals who break themselves making sure people are not turned away who need care.
Those hospitals are being threatened under obamacare and may not be here much longer.
illmunkeys

Actually an elective surgery by definition is non-emergent. I am not being vague: an elective surgery may be beneficial to the patient however the surgery itself is non-emergent because at that moment whatever is afflicting the patient is not life-threatening. This is not to say it would't eventually become life threatening.

And I'm glad those hospitals are there, breaking themselves to treat self-payers. However, they shouldn't _need_ to break themselves. In fact, with a bit of preventative care, most ER visits and long-term hospitalizations can be prevented. A single-payer option, which covers basic medical needs of all US citizens will solve this problem. Private insurance should be used to cover elective and non-emergent medical needs.
Mark Demon

Not necessarily right. Elective surgery can be emergent. However it is elective because there are other existing treatments to avoid that surgery. For instance I can ELECT to have the surgery in order to avoid a more painful treatment.

In my case I elected to have a full knee replacement and go back to work rather than deal with the pain of ongoing physical therapy and collagen shots and live on disability for the rest of my life. Money well spent on my part and my insurance companies part. Even with the expense of my surgery my insurance company and I spend less money in the long run. We spent a combined $250,000 on one surgery verses over 3 million over the course of 20 years which comes out to 150,000/ year if I hadn't elected to have the surgery. That's a savings of 2,750,000 over 20 years and I am a functioning member of the work force.

So ya know. I don't want to hear about how elective surgery in unnecessary. Socialism doesn't work. Never has.
Rose

You are ignorant if you think all elective surgery is NOT life-essential.

I doubt seriously that you think that at all. It is just another ignorant strawman, because the Dim propaganda machine doesn't have any BRIGHT strawmen to use!
Mark Demon

Thank you Rose
Rose

Thank YOU! Mark!
tblrk2006

You know what else is elective? Buying catastropic coverage. You decide not to do that, and you end up needing it, and its your ass. Not mine.
illmunkeys

No, if I don't have catastrophic coverage and I get put in the ER and have emergency surgeries to save me, your ass pays for it. I declare bankruptcy and move on with my life (if I survive, of course).
Rose

AH! AN ADMISSION OF TRUTH! THIS FAR DOWN THE ENTIRE THREAD! THAT IS THE WAY IT STANDS NOW! And you have confessed to the KNOWLEDGE you have been pretending you did not have!
Mr. EMT

No, if I don't have catastrophic coverage and I get put in the ER and have emergency surgeries to save me,

So now you suddenly have access to life saving healthcare you and vega claimed not to have access to earlier? Interesting.
Rose

You are quite right, Mr. EMT – as usual!

YES, indeed, how DID this uncovered Marxist Democrat get medical attention HE DOESN'T HAVE TO PAY FOR, WITHOUT ODRAMA QUEEN CARE, and as HE implies, walks away clean as a whistle – no worries, Mate!

WHO KNEW there were NON-SEIU MARXISTS running around in AMERICA?
Christopher_Taylor

It is illegal in the United States to deny someone life saving or necessary medical coverage, regardless of ability to pay. What you are saying happens does not happen because of any flaw in the present system.

Rose

Well, that is the DIM PARTY for ya, alright!

Like that little boy they found in the ABORTION clinic a few days ago, TWO DAYS OLD AND STILL ALIVE, not getting any medical attention or ANYTHING ELSE EITHER for that matter. I think he was stuffed in a CLOSET.

Yeah, gimme some of THAT kind of attention, for SURE! LOL!

SO NOT!

D-Vega

No one is saying deny evveryone a chance. That is WTH's assertion. Which is false because there is not only no evidence that is happening, but even the original “Obamacare” plan wouldn't be anywhere near the European model of healthcare.

WTH is trying to scare people (Obamacare Will Kill Medical Technology) when this is not true at all.

What a PUBLIC OPTION would have done is give more people access to this type of technology.

Solzhenitsyn

Why is it my responsibility to provide health care for people who can't afford it at the threat of jail? If I choose to donate to an organization that is one thing.

If we're both honest we can admit that health care costs so much because Medicare and Medicaid doesn't reimburse at market rates. Since that is the case the people that can afford health care are subsidizing double for the people using those services.

And don't tell me that I am a cold hearted conservative. It is a fact that conservatives are much more generous than Dems.
mightysamurai

No one is saying deny evveryone a chance.

Actually that is what you're saying.

You support a socialized healthcare system. Socialized healthcare is proven to deny lifesaving treatments to everyone. QED, you support this as well.

illmunkeys

Evidence points contrary. I still have yet to find a study that doesn't list the US having one of the most inefficient health care operations in the industrial world. We spend more money for less.

People live longer, have fewer infant mortalities, spend less in nearly every State that provides socialized medicine.

States that combine a public option (that covers the basic day to day operations and those unfortunate ER visits) and a private option (that covers elective surgies) spend even less and have even better care.

mightysamurai

Evidence points contrary.

What evidence? You mean the evidence right in this very post which proves that socialized medicine denies an advanced lifesaving medical treatment to an entire country of patients? Was that the evidence you were referring to?

I still have yet to find a study that doesn't list the US having one of the most inefficient health care operations in the industrial world.

Ah yes, the much vaunted “studies” that allegedly “prove” what a horrible healthcare system we have in this country.

Are these the same studies that also list Cuba of all places as having one of the best healthcare systems in the world? The same ones that use bogus statistics, manipulated numbers, and “massaged” data to arrive at a pre-determined, liberal-friendly conclusion?
Mr. EMT

I still have yet to find a study that doesn't list the US having one of the most inefficient health care operations in the industrial world. We spend more money for less.
Example the WHO's study from 2000?
That has been the most quoted one. IF you have another study that has been conducted recently I would like to see it. In either event you are speaking of the money aspect of the healthcare industry, not the quality of care in your post.
So lets get down to brass tax(sp) about the fact that the reason why it is inefficient is because too many people treat the system like a lottery, sue and get rich. It is expensive because hospitals are required to have liability insurance for every aspect of care given. From pills dispenced (you wonder why your OTC aspirin cost 10 bucks a pill? about 80% of the cost is insurance fees) to diagnoses given, to procedures performed. All have tacked on insurance liability fee incase the hospital or providers are sued.
And those “unfortunet ER visits?” Seriously get real. Most insurance policies tell the customer that they have their ER visit covered 100%, which makes an ER get used predominately as a health clinic.
All the problems I briefly covered I can totally blame on politicians and their unwillingness to address Tort and insurance Reform
Solzhenitsyn

Why does the US smash other socialized countries in cancer survival rates?
Rose

Well, that is easy – you are reading only Dim Marxist, PRO-ACTION T4 studies, and nothing else at all.

Did you miss the PETER ORSZAG GOSPEL MESSAGE FROM THE WHITE HOUSE?

ACTUALLY???

D-Vega

Bzzz! Wrong again.

If you mean nationalized healthcare, then no.

If you're talking gov't subsidized, then yes. But we have that now, and look at the great tech WTH is raving about.

Having a public option wouldn't prevent that. AT ALL.

Its a myth. And using the European model as an example doesn't compute, because its NOT the European model.

So no, you're wrong. What would be the true shame is people with cancer withering away because they don't have access to these machines. THAT is the status quo and under more conservative policies they would have even less. Unless they start taking chickens at the cancer centers.

Christopher_Taylor

Government subsidized health insurance is what got us into the position we're in now, and its caused the costs to skyrocket as regulation, expenses, and lawsuits drive the business to a deeper and deeper corner. If you push them any further, they won't be able to make any money at the work and will simply stop making that technology here. Its happened around the world yet somehow you figure it will be different this time.

There's a phrase about insanity and repeating the same mistake which springs to mind…
Rose

TSK TSK TSK! YOU KNOW IT IS OVER WITH “PUBLIC OPTION” – PETER ORSZAG SAID SO! And there is NO BENEFIT on the PLANET to HIM in HIS position to admit THAT!
And HE is in the position to be authoritative TO YOU!

Whadya gonna do NEXT! Tell us that Odrama Queen ain't calling us TEA BAGGERS, because he doesn't want to raise the level of uncivil discourse?

SHAME SHAME SHAME!!!

http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

Until some buerocrat(sp) denies said coverage or procedure once it's deemed too expensive, just like they are doing in BRITAIN, CANADA, et al.
Mr. EMT

From what I understand the politicians are still sifting through the bill, no one clearly understands all the ramifications of what is and is not in it.
What some things are included that have come to light:
No children with pre-existing conditions, congressional healthcare plans are void.
This is all aside from the fact that POLITICIANS are going to be dictating to doctors what they can and cant do based on what a grubby fingered forked tongue lying politician deems as medically necissary to reimburse from tax payer money. Money a politician wont see if they pay off.
Everyone with a brain knows this is toxic, expecially in the medical field.
Dumbasses who think “oh i get free care” is a good thing, could care less about the quality of care they will get and who has to pay for it since they are freeloaders with a freeloader mentality.
Rose

NOT TRUE!

Sarah Palin Was Right… Obama Budget Director Orszag Admits Government Panels Will Decide Who Gets Health Care (Video)
Posted by Jim Hoft on Monday, April 26, 2010, 6:56 PM
http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/04/sa…

Insurance denial SELDOM denies MEDICAL TREATMENT – that is why cases of it always get such big media attention.

GOVERNMENT DENIAL ends up being denial of TREATMENT if not immediately, almost immediately, after the program begins.

Look at the Child care program Hawaii did a few years ago, it took them approx 6 months to run out of money. Massachusetts program is broke, DAILY UK NEWS of massive numbers of case of GROSS refusal to attend to patients – currently areas with one doctor per 300,000 patients per night, some are lucky to have a nurse around, some have a nurse “around” but it does THEM no good whatsoever!

Reading the news of those cases is worse than reading about triage in the frontlines of WAR!

CHECK WHAT HAPPENS TO YOUR HEALTH CARE IF YOU ATTEMPT TO GET AROUND THE GOVT TREATMENT IN CANADA! Especially by merely PAYING for what you need by private arrangement! THEY CALL IT “CUTTING IN LINE!”

What if THEY had a large disaster?

I remember one of our founding fathers saying some were defending Slavery as alright, and for some, even good for them. He said, I have a deep desire to see it applied to THEM when I hear THAT!

Well, I am that way about all these “BENEFICIAL GOVT PROGRAMS” because I have seen friends on them, and believe me, I'd love to see you PRO-MARXIST Liberals on these programs. JUST DEARLY!

I've never seen a child in my entire life stupid enough t fall for something like this.
Just watch the Ally Bank commercial of the two girls and “free ponies”.

That kind of pitch requires PURE HATRED – not NAIVITY or CHILDISHNESS.

Fail baby Fail

Wolf. Some bureaucrat still can deem a procedure to costly. They just get paid from a insurance company to do it.

I thinks its funny the example of who uses the “CyberKnife.” Was a multi millionaire. Doing a little Googling it costs 50-100k for the process.

From Cyberkinfes site
Coverage Denials
In some cases, authorization of CyberKnife treatments may be denied because the payer does not have enough information to make a favorable coverage decision. Their letter of denial may give one or more of the following reasons why the payer will not cover your CyberKnife treatment:

The treatment is investigational or experimental.
The treatment is not medically necessary.
The treatment is not the standard of care.

Understanding the payer’s reasoning for denial is very important because it will help you and your doctor develop an appropriate approach for a successful appeal and gather the necessary supporting documentation.

Cyber knife is not the standard of care. The standard is to do nothing because the cancer is too close to something vital to operate. If Obama care was this socialized mess that you call it. Why do we still have insurance company's?

Solzhenitsyn

We still have insurance companies because Chairman O knows that the public option was to unpopular. Plus he knows that this scheme will lead to single payer. Barney Frank among others has admitted it.

Fail baby Fail

I have 3 links that say your talking out of your ass. Do you have any polls that say the public, is against the public option?

http://4and20blackbirds.wordpress.com/2009/10/2…

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/20/new-po…

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/ar…

Try again sport. Try to back up what you are saying with some FACTS…..

Mr. EMT

Half the public doesnt even know what public option means since it has “public” and “option” in the title.
Huffington post really? Guess we should start a poll here and see what the public wants to counter the huffers.

Why dont you go around and ask colleagues if they want more money taken out of their paychecks in the form of taxes so that people can get free healthcare controlled by government politicians. See how much positive feedback you get?

Oh shnit… you dont have colleagues huh? Maybe you should get out of your momma's basement sometime and get a job.
Solzhenitsyn

If it was so popular than why wasn't it worked into the bill?
Solzhenitsyn

I found this which shows that the American people are obviously misinformed about what a public option is:

“Based on what you know or have read about the health care legislation Congress passed this past week, do you, personally, think each of the following applies or does not apply to that legislation? How about [see below]?”

Applies Does not
apply Unsure
% % %

“It will expand the government's role in the health care system too much”

3/26-28/10
65 33 2

“It will cost the government too much”

3/26-28/10
64 33 3

“It does not do enough to deal with rising health care costs”

3/26-28/10
58 36 6

“It should include a government-run insurance plan, also called a public option”

3/26-28/10
52 43 5

“It does not go far enough in regulating the health care industry”

3/26-28/10
51 41 8

How can you be for a public plan and want more regulation but at the same time think it involves the government too much in health insurance and think it costs too much? Those are contradictory view points.

Rose

Odrama Queen WANTS the sole option to be the public option. Trouble is, HE KNOWS WE KNOW, and he knows he ain't foolin' nobody.
http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/C2UYYYSPBB7S3NC3NQ7NOJFLME Peter

The public option was extremely popular among voters but it was a political dead horse because the insurance industry controls health care in this country and it hates competition.

Solzhenitsyn

Yea, I'm sure that's why it didn't pass.
Rose

The Public Option was popular with voters who were too ignorant to comprened the definition of it.

If you asked them if they wanted the same kind of Socialized Medicine as England and Canada have, where if you were denied a procedure, it is illegal to pay for it privately and get it anyway, “on the side”, and by the way, your taxes will go up 30-40% regardless of your current yearly income, they say NO THANKS!
And then suddenly, EVERYONE has a story of a relative who ran afoul of the Foreign Socialized Medical Package, somewhere.

Once they understand the definition of it.
Otherwise, they think like that lady in the now-famous video talking about going downtown to sign up for some of that Obama Money – she don't know where it come from, but he got it – it's HIS – and he want HER to have some ob DAT!

THAT is why the more info gets out there, the more the poll numbers on it grow against it, and the more people are signing petitions that they will NOT vote for politicians who do NOT promise to REPEAL it ASAP!

It is hard to go through life with no credibility.

And that will get much much worse, “sooner rather than later” – as Clinton used to say! “Sooner rather than later!”

http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

However with an insurance company you can appeal, pay for it yourslef, or even have a fund raising drive, or all of the above, With the Fed in charge you MIGHT get to appeal.

Fail baby Fail

Wolf sure you can appeal with a insurance company. How often do you win an appeal? They also take time something cancer patients dont really have. Your big argument is a IF, IF,IF,IF. If the govt takes over, If they deny you.
I have a problem with the price of the process. Some simple math for you try to keep up.
3,000,000.00 to buy the equipment per a article on Google.
50,000.00 -100,000.00 for the process.
If they use it every day all year 365 days. They make 18,250,000.00 a year thats having it used once per day at 50k not the higher price of 100k
Up keep lets just throw out another 3,000,000.00 that should cover the lights staying on and the doctors getting paid. Hell lets call it 5,000,000.00 I think thats a fair price.

After 3mil to buy it 5mil to pay the bills. The provider still made 10,250.000.00. Thats just the first year. Add 3mil more to the kitty on the second year because the equipment is paid for now.

Just like someone said its the economy stupid. Its the price of the process STUPID.

Why is it 50k-100k thats a pretty big difference.

http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

Because dumbass it's NOT going to get used EVERY DAY, it's use is limited and until more uses are found for the device it will be years before the hospital recoups it's cost. Once more uses are found the price per procedure drops, CT scans and MRIs used to cost ten thousands of dollars and insurers were reluctant to pay then more uses were found more the scans that better justified the expensive equipment, and Viola, the price dropped!!!

It's called supply and demand, when you have the device and it's got limited use, demand as low and cost is high, as more uses are found demand increases and cost per procedure drop. ECON 101, BOY!

http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/C2UYYYSPBB7S3NC3NQ7NOJFLME Peter

Whenever someone makes you look like a fool you call them a name.

You got it all figured out, why do we pay so much for health care without proactively covering everyone? Because we wait for the uninsured to get sick and struggle for health care or die. Your side says screw them.
Rose

And when everyone makes Odrama Queen look like a fool, he never calls anyone else names, does he, HE never IMPLIES THEY have lack of character or anything like THAT, does he! AND THE REST of the DIM PARTY CONGRESSMEMBERS, ET AL.

Remember when Nancy Pelosi talked about the VIOLENCE getting so scary – anyone HERE think she was talking about the DIMS such as who LITERALLY were throwing bricks, water bottles, stones, Molotov cocktails, acid, or urine at cops, and marbles under their horses' hooves?

NO! SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT TEA PARTIERS – while referring to the killing of Harvey Milk – who was gunned down by a CO-CONSPIRATOR DEMOCRAT LIBERAL MARXIST who was mad over Milk's CHEATING!

AND IMPLYING THE VIOLENCE OF TEA PARTIERS WHICH IS NON-EXISTANT WAS “SCARING HER”!

That is (SIC) SICK (SIC), Peter!

And we aren't impressed. And we don't think you are on any “HIGH” road!

And you ain't pulling off that SANCTIMONIOUS GAG, either.
Fail baby Fail

Millions of people have cancer. Since there are only 100 Cyberknife's in the nation they could fill the down time…… Right?

I would say the demand is high. Out of the millions that get cancer are you telling me 36500 people or less have a form of cancer that the Cyberknife can work on. Thats a hair over 3% per million.

So if your done with your bullshit answer??? Try to answer without calling people names. What are you in high school?
Rose

WOW! Your knowledge of Cancer is as staggering as all the rest of your knowledge.
HAW HAW HAW!!! SO NOT!!!

MANY Cancers cannot be treated such ways AT ALL, even if a cyberknife is better than an ordinary scalpel – and many of them have alternative treatments.

Thank God that MEDICAL DOCTORS are not like Democrats and environmental whacko scientists who are happy to twist the FACTS to suit their CURRENT philosophy, regardless of the consequences.

Like when the whackos decide we cannot have fire breaks through woodland areas, for the “SAKE” of the FOREST and the woodland animals.

Or hey, let's find a BIZARRE WAY to MOP UP CO2 and SAVE THE RAIN FOREST!

Michaelalan

No shit Obamacare will kill medical technology. All health care is patents or labor. So supporters are basically taking the incentive out of making and applying for patents for their medical breakthroughs or wanting doctors to work for less than the going market rate for their services.

http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/C2UYYYSPBB7S3NC3NQ7NOJFLME Peter

The problem with your argument is that there is and will always be loads of money to be made, by businesses happy to earn it even if it is less than what is now being earned.

American enterprise is resilient and will survive.

http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

So was Britain's, dumbass
Rose

The problem with your argument is that there are plenty of businesses closing now, especially in the MEDICAL FIELD, because they may be happy to earn, even if it is less than what is earned currently – TAKE THAT TO THE SEIU, BTW – but those companies are not so anxious to have direct contact with the Federal government JUST SO THEY CAN LOSE MORE AND MORE AND MORE MONEY on each transaction.

A man who was previously making 50¢ on every DOLLAR MIGHT be happy to make 25¢, or even 3¢, on every dollar.

But he ain't gonna be happy to LOSE 50¢ on every dollar, and pay increased taxes on the remaining 50¢, that he didn't “LOSE” in the business deal!

You may be too stupid to see the difference, but people are finding quotations by Odrama Queen and all his mentors and associates he told us to check out to see where he stands on the issues – that shows that they KNOW AND ARE DELIBERATELY PLANNING this MASSIVE AND PERMANENT COLLAPSE of the American economy – QUITE ON PURPOSE – WITH QUITE AN AGENDA for what they plan to do with the POWER they THINK that will leave in their hands. Videos of them SAYING SO AND EXPLAINING HOW AND WHY AND WHEN AND WHERE!

His original premise is flawed. Jesus told a parable of men who rented a vineyard and when the vineyard owner sent bill collectors to get the rent checks, they killed them, then killed the heir – saying to themselves, thus they would STEAL THE VINEYARD for themselves.

Jesus pointed out that their thinking was flawed because the OWNER and the FATHER OF THE HEIR would come and kill all THEM, and they would NOT own and enjoy HIS VINEYARD for themselves at all.

But Odrama Queen is sillier than that – HE thinks if he kills all the heirs and also DESTROYS THE VINEYARD TOO, utterly to less than rubble, that he will get to enjoy all the power and prestige the community has to offer to him, AS THE RICH AND POWERFUL OWNER OF A TREMENDOUS VINEYARD (which no longer exists, is no longer making ANYONE wealthy or comfortable, or able to recline at leisure).

Dave

First of all stating that “British authorities won't allow them to be used on patients” is a flat out falsehood because as your link states “(o)nly private patients whose insurers agree to pay will have access”. Well guess what. That exact same scenario applies to the current health care system in the U.S. today. And I'd be surprised if any but the gold plated private plans cover the procedure. Just like my father-in-law's plan doesn't cover the $5k/per month drug regimen that while shows signs of being effective in fighting his type of cancer but is considered 'experimental'. Yet these innovations still happen.

http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

Nice anectote that just goes to show what can happen, not what will.

http://www.sqcomic.com sqcomic

I did a Strange Quark Comics series on obamacare that seems relevant to this discussion – see it at http://www.sqcomic.com/LOTB.html
Christopher_Taylor

All this talk about who is covered and what insurance handles and doesn't entirely misses the point.

If health care didn't cost as much as it does, then people would not have as much trouble getting what they want done. President Obama's plan does not reduce costs and thus does not address the problem. No plan which does not reduce costs is worth a damn in this, it doesn't matter how bad things are now or will be under the Government Health Insurance Takeover act.

If I Was Your President (Boyfriend Spoof)

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