Religious Freedom, Property Rights vs. Government Control

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Religious Freedom, Property Rights vs. Government Control

Written By : Warner Todd Huston

As the left falls all over itself to claim that building the Ground Zero Mega-Mosque is the perfect chance to “showcase” our “Constitutional freedoms” and our religious tolerance, there is another state where religious tolerance is not as noticeably on display as it is for New York’s Muslims. Naturally, in Vermont, it is the religious freedom of Christians being denied. To be sure, the Old Media is not nearly as interested in this story.

Richard and Joan Downing own a hilltop property in Lyndonville, Vermont and on that property they’ve built a family chapel where they host weekly Catholic services for all. Next to the chapel they have also erected a 24-foot-tall cross called the Cross of Dozulé, a cross that the State of Vermont is insisting that they remove. (Visit The Chapel of the Holy Family website)

How does the State of Vermont justify its demands that the family pull down the cross? Vermont officials are citing environmental regulations that give it the power to determine what sort of construction violates the “aesthetics” of Vermont’s scenery.

Now in their seventies, the Downings built their Catholic chapel in 2005 to serve their large extended family. The Downings’s chapel is used by their seven children, three of them adopted, and the 35 foster children they helped raise over the years. The chapel is also open to the general public.

The Cross of Dozulé, or the “Cross of Love,” is an homage to those erected by Catholics in thousands of places across the globe. Some Catholics believe that the cross is a reminder for humanity to avoid spiritual decline by submission to God’s will. It is also, they believe, a reminder God’s love for us. As such it is to be fully lighted at night so as to be easily seen.

It is the lighting of the cross that initially caused the problem. Some neighbors complained that the lighting was too bright and it seems that this forms the basis of the State’s decision to force the family to pull the cross down.

The family has since changed the lighting so that it isn’t as bight at night.

The regulations in question, Vermont Act 250, is a law written in the 1960s meant to stop out-of-state “hippies” from buying local property and pitching tent cities there creating eyesores and sanitation hazards. The regulation requires landowners to get land use permits before construction.

This case contrasts nicely with the Ground Zero Mosque, though. In New York a Muslim Imam that is well known for wanting to push Sharia laws on the U.S. — a foreign concept that would destroy religious liberty where instituted – is seeing his rights being touted as preeminent. On the other hand in Vermont a family that only wants to display a cross to inform viewers of God’s love is having their religious freedom denied.

It is instructive to note which story is most covered in the Old Media. The rights of the Muslims in New York is the talk of the media while the rights of the Christians in Vermont is practically invisible in that same media establishment.

I guess some folks’ religious freedom is more sacrosanct than that of others.

tblrk2006

We have no need to demonstrate our religious tollerance……espcially to Islam. Tollerance is on display each and every day in the USA. This is has nothing to do with tollerance. It is about incredibly bad taste and insensitivity directed towards us. Take your mosque and shove it up your arse.

Mr. EMT

Adding to your point.
Lets wait to be tolerant AFTER islam becomes tolerant, not before.
Oh wait, then there will be no more islam according to its imams.
D-Vega

How tolerant of you.

coolczech

Sorry we don't share your tolerance fetish, D-Vega.

Since when did your fixation with it become the end-all of civic high-mindedness, anyway?

D-Vega

It's called a joke, Czech.

mightysamurai

I knew it. I knew that if we waited long enough another story would pop up where a Christian group was being denied their right to build a church and/or religious monument on private property. And I knew that the reason for it would be something petty and stupid.

At least the people opposing the Cordoba mosque have a legitimate argument. Muslim terrorists murdered three thousand people a stone's throw away from the Cordoba House and building a mosque there would be considered a symbol of victory to the terrorists, to say nothing of the disrespect it shows to the people of the United States in general and New York City in specific. But here in Vermont, their only reasoning is that this cross violates the “aesthetics” of the neighborhood. In short, they think it looks icky and they object to having their precious eyeballs soiled by being forced to look upon a Christian cross.

Mahatma

At least the people opposing the Cordoba mosque have a legitimate argument

Islamophobia, by any name is still Islamophobia.

this cross violates the “aesthetics” of the neighborhood

And the covenant of my subdivision says I can't paint my house purple.

UFKA_Smithwick

I assume you're talking about a home owners association.

HOAs are voluntary contracts you sign when you choose to move to a certain area. They can't be used against you if you haven't signed them.

If these folks signed an HOA contract stating this is not allowed that would be one thing, but that does not appear to be the case.

Mr. EMT

I would never allow myself to be forced to sign a nazi HOA.

UFKA_Smithwick

Which fortunately is your right. Unfortunately the state can drop in and take up that role at will.

For that there really is no escape other than to renounce your citizenship (not that there are many options out there).

All the more reason to fight back against these kinds of intrusions rather than letting them slide.
Mr. EMT

Well, depending on what property right we are discussing?
HOA's can micromanage you on when and how you tend to your lawn, the acceptable colors you may paint your house, any ornaments etc to displaying the American Flag.
Where I see the state interfering is over immanent domain disputes and water/mineral rights etc, more so than trivial matters that an HOA invades you under.
Either event, I would use the law as much as possible. Get a damn good lawyer, hock whatever you have to in order to fight with every legal means you can.
Last resort would be to give up and move away.
UFKA_Smithwick

I don't care for HOAs either, but they are easier to get away from than environmental laws.
Mr. EMT

Looking at the real estate market, I got a hunch that HOA's are going to be a luxery no one is going to dare try enforcing for a while.
UFKA_Smithwick

Most likely. I think they're figure out it's better to have an off-color house with slightly long grass as in your neighborhood than to have half the houses lie empty and untended entirely.

Mr. EMT

I missed the part where islamaphobia is supposed to be a bad thing?

Oh wait, it is bad when it creates an enviornment that makes it difficult to increase the ease in which terrorism in the name of islam is perpetuated, right?
Restricting religious freedom for islamists is interpretated as:Not alowing honor killings, gang rape by court tribunal, not allowing the stoning of women, infringing on the right to decapitate the heads of infidels, not aiding in the destrotion of zionist regimes

did i leave out any other religious infringements that islamaphobia infringes?
Oh wait, there is still about 99% of the Quran left to go through which includes marrying prepubescent children, 72 virgins for suicide bombers etc etc.

But hey, we are just skipping all those parts and lets cut to the meat of the matter.
Truth is you are pissed off that people are standing in the way of the Bin Laden Victory Mosque at Ground Zero.
Traitor.
http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

Islamaphobia is not the reason to oppose we oppose the mosque asshatma, but I'm so glad you build a good strawman.

Mahatma

Then what is it Pvt. Pyle? Hurt feewings is not a reason.

http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

Respect for the dead, people killed by the violence of Islam. Tolerance of the desires of those Americans who were hurt by 9/11, beacuse tolerance is a two way street, just like respect. How about those reasons asshatma?
the_hawk

Telling that an overt act of war against this country that resulted in the deaths of over 3,000 innocents is just so ho-hum for you. I guess as long as nobody you knew was involved, it doesn't raise your “give a damn” meter.
UFKA_Smithwick

Why should muslims use this as an excuse for further terrorism? Hurt feewings is not a reason.

UFKA_Smithwick

“Islamophobia, by any name is still Islamophobia.”

Logically then the only reason they are trying to get this cross taken down is hatred of Christians.
mightysamurai

Ad hominem attacks and illogic. Exactly what I've come to expect of you.

Islamophobia, by any name is still Islamophobia.

So 60% of the entire country hates muslims? Is that what you're saying?

What about the muslims who have come out against the Cordoba mosque? Are they suffering from “Islamophobia” too?

And the covenant of my subdivision says I can't paint my house purple.

This is about state law, not HOA regulations. Do try and pay attention.

Mahatma

Did I stutter? Just pointing out there are precedents. Federal, State, Local and yes HOA's have the right to regulate.

http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

They do if the law is written to allow such, but no law has been to that would apply in this case.
StanW

Right, it's fine to regulate and prohibit a cross, but a Mosque? No one should be allowed to even speak against that, right Vega.
D-Vega

Stan, people are going to start thinking you really are an idiot if you keep accusing random people of being me.

If I have something to say, I'll say it.
StanW

No, you will run away and hide behind another name because you are too afraid to debate issues.
D-Vega

Yes, we all know D-Vega just hates debating issues.
StanW

Yes he does. He bitches and moans and then runs away like the punk-ass BITCH that he is.

Why don;t you jump back on as Mahatma so you can cry about me getting the last word!
D-Vega

You are now confusing your obsessions, Stan. I have not ever posted a comment on this site under any other name.
D-Vega

5 YEARS AND COUNTING.
StanW

And you are ONCE AGAIN responding to yourself. Yeah, you're stable, sure you are Vega!
D-Vega

What does that make you then, Stan, since you can't resist following me wherever I go.

Do you want my Twitter address?
StanW

I don't want anything from you, and I am not following you, Vega. It is just fun to point out your lies and your cowardice and watch you squirm.
Mediumheadboy

Leftist trolls bring new meaning to the term “egotism.”
D-Vega

So you are following me?
StanW

Right, Vega Sure you haven't. You have also said you have never lied and never lost an argument. And we all know how true those last two things are.
mightysamurai

Did I stutter?

No, but you do tend to froth and drool. You should probably get some help with that.

Not being able to paint your house purple is not remotely equivalent to not being able to freely exercise your religion on your own private property. I am honestly flabbergasted that you do not comprehend the difference.
Mediumheadboy

I'm not. Troll is, after all, remarkably stupid.

Mahatma

So 60% of the entire country hates muslims? Is that what you're saying?

Oh I think at least that many FEAR muslims, thanks to the right wing news machine. Must I educate you on every complex term used? IslamoPHOBIA. (phobia is an irrational, intense and persistent fear of certain situations, activities, things, animals, or people.)

Remember war is good for the economy and war can be justified if there is enough FEAR.

freeman

Damn that Right Wing News Machine for forcing Muslims to fly into American buildings, shoot up army bases, try to bomb airliners, bomb airliners, hold embassies hostage, invade neighboring countries.

When will those poor innocent Muslims get their names cleared?
http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

Just like Swine Flu, Glowbull Warmining, Bird Flu, DDT, Glowball Cooling, oil running out, the Ozone Layer, and Sarah Palin? All that fearmongering from, the leftest biased MSM, that's still a threat to mankind? How many people were killed today Bird Flu, how many by Muslims.

Only an idiot sticks his head up his ass and claims facts as fear mongering, while claiming supposition and bad science are things to halt man's progress to save the planet.
http://www.facebook.com/jayhoffer Justin Hoffer

I like how you ignored how other Muslims are against it, as well as a number of lieberals, but only talk about the conservatives against it being “Islamophobic”.
UFKA_Smithwick

“Remember war is good for the economy and war can be justified if there is enough FEAR. “

Oh dear god, you're a college-aged liberal arts major aren't you?

UFKA_Smithwick

Yep.

The hypocrisy is pretty impressive.

Both have the right to do so as it is their property and they are paying for it.

It doesn't sound like this cross was erected as a middle finger to anyone, so the people can't even be accused of being jerks like the mosque builders are.

I look forward to the spin that will surely follow this story.

D-Vega

It's not hypocrisy. At all. The people in Vermont trying to prevent this have nothing to do with New York City, or the issues therein.

This is simply the right making a weak case once again as to why they should discriminate against muslim in NYC, and we shouldn't in VT. Because of imaginary hypocrisy?

UFKA_Smithwick

“At all. The people in Vermont trying to prevent this have nothing to do with New York City, or the issues therein.”

Not the people doing it, the responses will be hypocritical.

“This is simply the right making a weak case once again as to why they should discriminate against muslim in NYC, and we shouldn't against Christians in VT. Because of imaginary hypocrisy? “

Who is discriminating? Has anyone here advocated using the force of law to stop either party?

D-Vega

Discriminating is not force. Discriminating is treating one case differently, just because of one characteristic. In this case, Muslims.

So yes, discrimination. The rightwing howls when it's a Christian, and finds way to justify it when it's a Muslim.
UFKA_Smithwick

Oh I see the problem. You're still acting under the false assumption that opposition to the mosque is based around simple hatred of any religious displays from muslims.

If that were true then yes being outraged by muslim religious displays but not christians would be biased and hypocritical.

But that isn't the case no matter how often you repeat it.

If they were to put up a giant cross memorializing say an abortion doctors murder by a crazed religious fanatic then there would be a comparison to be made.

But this cross wasn't put up near where Christians killed thousands, so it doesn't really apply. And the government only intervening in one case suggests a bias on the part of government.
D-Vega

Whether something is put up at a certain location will offend people killed by a extreme fringe of what that symbol represents is supposed to be irrelevant.
UFKA_Smithwick

Nope. It is irrelevant merely because you say so.

Putting a cross up near a Christian atrocity, or Star of David near a Jewish one, or crescent near a Muslim one, etc all these are what is commonly known as “dick moves”.

And have nothing to do with bringing us closer, improving inter-faith relationships, or generally making the world a better place.

You don't generally see German cultural museums right next door to holocaust memorials. Why? Because it would be a “dick move”, even though only an extreme fringe of Germans actually had a hand in it.
D-Vega

First of all, none of your analogies refer to houses of worship.

Secondly, even if it's a “dick move” (which it's not, it's consistent with where they've been for 30 years), dick moves as they are applied to religion are well within the Constitution.

Burning Korans on 9/11? Dick move.

Protected Free Speech? Absolutely.

How many of the rightwing on coming out against that disrepect and dick move? Nil.
freeman

If burning Korans is a dick move, would sticking one in a jar of urine be art? Can I still get a government grant to find out?
D-Vega

Why not stick your head in a jar of urine, and call it “Dick in Urine”?
freeman

It might be time to take a deep breath, Vega.

I was referring to the famous artwork 'Piss Christ', which won the famous Southeastern Center for Contemporary Art's “Awards in the Visual Arts” competition. A competition sponsored in part by the National Endowment for the Arts, a United States Government agency that offers support and funding for artistic project.

How is a Koran any more offensive?
D-Vega

I didn't say it was. I know what you were referring to. I thought that was offensive and should be called such.

So why then, if conservatives harshly criticized Piss Christ, is there no critique of koran burning?
freeman

Bibles are burned in protest every day. Why not korans? Are Muslims supposed to be treated the same in this country or not?
UFKA_Smithwick

It's like with modern feminists: they don't want actual equality, just the positives and none of the negatives.

So Islam will be held to the same standard as all other religions except when those standards are not to their liking. Which is why the withering criticism directed daily at Christianity becomes racism or islamophobia when directed at Islam.
UFKA_Smithwick

“So why then, if conservatives harshly criticized Piss Christ, is there no critique of koran burning?”

Perhaps it was drowned out by the shouts of muslims condemning 9/11?

Heh.
freeman

Oh, and I forgot. Is it a Mosque or a Community Center? Because if its just a community center then the analogies are correct because it wouldn't be a house of worship either.
D-Vega

We are not referring to house of worship in this case either. The chapel is not involved in this issue, only the cross is. So it's a symbol, not a house.

In either case, it's private property.
StanW

Are you back top the “It's Not A Mosque” lie, Vega? Don't you get tired of being such an ass?
D-Vega

Reading is fundamental, Stan.
StanW

I used to think that telling the truth was. But you have proven to me that truth beyond your capabilities, Vega.

It *IS* a mosque, dumbass, because that is what the Muslims that are building it call it. Are you calling them liars?
D-Vega

I was referring to this issue, Stan. The cross. Pay attention.
StanW

Yeah, Build a mosque on private property and no one has any right to disagree with you because that is religious bigotry. But put a cross on private property and the full force of the goverment has to step in and stop it.
D-Vega

No one has said that, so you are wrong or lying.
StanW

Vega, that is EXACTLY what you have said about the Cordoba house Mosque. I know how unfair it is to use your own words against you, but there it is. DEAL WITH IT!
freeman

Hey, you're the one who said that UFKA_Smithwick analogies didn't count because they weren't houses of worship. You know, in the post you made two up from this one. Which means that the Community Center is. So which is it?
D-Vega

No one the analogies he used were houses of worship.

I never denied Park 51 was a house of worship. But it is also a lot more than that.
UFKA_Smithwick

Dude, you're royally screwing the pooch here: repeat after me “not a mosque, just a muslim YMCA”
TheDickNixon

Dick move? Not this time, Nixon used koran pages for toilet paper at his hunting camp though.
UFKA_Smithwick

“First of all, none of your analogies refer to houses of worship. “

How about say a catholic church near Auschwitz?

“Secondly, even if it's a “dick move” (which it's not, it's consistent with where they've been for 30 years), dick moves as they are applied to religion are well within the Constitution. “

Who said otherwise? You keep coming back to this “they have every right to build it here, freedom of religion dammit!” argument even though no one is contesting that fact. That would make it a strawman.

So much like the Phelps clan they have the right to do this. Doesn't mean they aren't dicks. There is no constitutional right to not be called an asshole for acting the part.

“Burning Korans on 9/11? Dick move. “

But they have the right. Free speech, ever heard of it? Why do you want to deny them their freedoms you fascist! (see how annoying that response is when all you're doing is calling them out on an action rather than trying to actually strip them of their rights?)

“How many of the rightwing on coming out against that disrepect and dick move? Nil. “

How many of the leftwing are coming out against the mosque, or tearing down that families cross under bizarre environmental regulations?

Burning books is almost always a bad idea unless you're freezing to death. Burning religious texts to piss off people is a dick move, simple enough.

Of course that book burning won't be around for the next 50+ years like the mosque will. And it isn't being done near the site where thousands of muslims were massacred.
mightysamurai

Discriminating is treating one case differently, just because of one characteristic.

Good thing we're not doing that, then.
D-Vega

Yeah, you are.
mightysamurai

Of course, because D-Vega says so.
D-Vega

Do I have to explain what words mean to you again? Look up discrimination and tell me how this is not.
mightysamurai

Funnily enough, I explained precisely that in my very first post on this thread. Maybe you should go read it. It'll be an education for you.

http://www.wordaroundthenet.com Christopher Taylor

Looks an awful lot like hypocrisy to me: block one religious structure and require everyone to agree with the other or you attack them and call them bigots.

D-Vega

Who's blocking this one?

whats_up

Did the couple in question get land use permits before the construction of the Cross? If they did the govt should butt out, if not, well then that is another story.

UFKA_Smithwick

It's their land.

Well, in a different time it would have been. Now I suppose it belongs to the EPA which graciously allows them to visit from time to time.

whats_up

However they would still need to get a use permit, this is nothing new, not to anyone. The article doesnt tell us if the homeowners did get this or not, so its hard to tell if this is intrusion or not. If they got the use permit allready, it should be tough shit to the state of Vermont. If they failed to get the use permit, then they need to follow the laws of their state or town and get said permit.

UFKA_Smithwick

If it were a permit issue they would be attacked on that ground. Environmental laws would not come in to play.

Mr. EMT

Flagged for fail
http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

Actually according to the law the state is siting they aren't required to get a permit, as the law applies to contractors building sub-divisions of housing, it says nothing about what one can do ones own property if it is not:

*Construction for a commercial or industrial purpose on more than one acre of land (or on more than 10 acres of land if the municipality has permanent zoning and subdivision bylaws);
*Construction of more than 10 housing units within a radius of 5 miles;
Subdivision of land into 10 or more lots;
*Construction of a road (incidental to the sale or lease of land) if the road provides access to more than five lots or is longer than 800 feet;
*Construction by the state or local government if the project involves more than 10 acres;
Substantial changes or additions to existing developments;
*Construction above 2,500 feet in elevation.

Unless the cross was bulit at altiude over 2500 ft of elevation it doesn't meet the laws criteria.
StanW

What happened to being able to do whatever you wanted on your own private property, crthns? That was all of your rage when it was Muslims. Now that it is Christians, they need permits to use their own land.

Just another example of the religious bigotry and hypocrisy of the Left in general and CRTHNS in particular!
mightysamurai

Did the couple in question get land use permits before the construction of the Cross?

As UFKA_Smithwick said, if this was a permit issue there would be no need to bring “environmental regulations” into it.
TheDickNixon

Did they claim David Duke voted for Bush in 2004 as you did?

UFKA_Smithwick

If only there had been warnings that environmental regulations would be appropriated to grant the government ever increasing abilities to encroach on personal rights and properties.

If only.

Oh wait, there were numerous such warnings that were solidly ignored every time someone put a picture of a sad looking bird or deer on the TV.
Dmpav

I had thought the Supreme Court had issued multiple rulings in the past regarding religious expression on private property.

Oh, wait…precedence is meaningless to liberals (unless it's in their favor)…

UFKA_Smithwick

It is unfortunate that this isn't in upstate New York.

Then the comparison would be even better.

It works as is, but that would be even more damning.

D-Vega

It doesn't work at all.

If anything, it weakens the case of the anti-mosqueteers.

UFKA_Smithwick

Hahah . . . what?

D-Vega

Because it illustrates that the specific case in NY is based on discrimination.

And you all actually think this points out hypocrisy on the part of liberals? That's funny.
UFKA_Smithwick

“Because it illustrates that the specific case in NY is based on discrimination. “

Again, you have created a false analogy.

No one is saying no muslim religious displays or mosques anywhere. Just not in this one place.

So yeah, if someone where to put up a cross celebrating some recent act of Christian terrorism then I would have a problem with that as well.

But I don't think Christians massacred 3,000 people in Lyndonville, Vermont any time recently.

Maybe I missed it, if so could you provide a link to the story?
D-Vega

Whether or not Christians killed thousands in one place is supposed to be irrelevant.

As a comparison, what is someone wanted to build a mosque in Jersey City, NJ (home to a least a few mosques) and it was within, say, 500 feet of a school where dozens of kids lost their parents on 9/11? Should we then respect the feelings of these kids?

Or better yet, a Catholic Church mere feet from a school when a few kids were molested by Catholic Priests?

And yes, people are looking to prevent mosques from opening anywhere they can.

Proposed Midland Beach mosque controversy: 2 sides remain worlds apart
Amy Padnani

Thursday, June 10, 2010

STATEN ISLAND, N.Y. — A meeting about a controversial plan for the Muslim American Society to build a mosque in Midland Beach ended the same way it began: with tension, anger and even hostility.

The two-hour affair, organized by the Midland Beach Civic Association, was intended for members of the community to ask questions about MAS and determine whether the mosque would be a welcome addition to the neighborhood. It was held last night at the Olympia Activity Center, which was filled to its 384-person capacity five minutes before the meeting was to start, and no one else was allowed in.

The controversy began when residents learned of a plan by St. Margaret Mary R.C. Church to sell its empty former convent to MAS, which planned to convert it to a mosque and community center with after-school programs for children.

Members of the community were upset that they knew nothing about the Islamic organization or its intents before the deal was made. Some insisted MAS had an affiliation with the Muslim Brotherhood, which has been questioned for terrorist practices. They were also angered that the church had agreed to make the sale without consulting the community.

During the meeting, people grilled three members of the board of the MAS Brooklyn and Staten Island chapter about their views on terrorism and religion, the first question coming from Robert Spencer of jihadwatch.org.

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/locals-angry…

Yeah, NYC is only the beginning.
freeman

I thought all New Yorkers supported mosques, it was only the rubes in the rest of the country that had the problem.

Oh, and do you live in Staten Island? Because I have it on good authority that you can only have an opinion on something if you actually live there. So, if you don't, it's none of your business.
D-Vega

I don't know what the hell you're talking about. You are certainly missing the point, so it probably means you are thinking of something clever to say.

FAIL.
freeman

What I am talking about is the belief that New Yorkers support the mosque or community center and that their opinion is the only one that matters.

This is an opinion that was posted by John_C on this site last week, http://rightwingnews.com/2010/08/ground-zero-mo…, and I have seen on echoed on many other liberal web sites.
D-Vega

That is a belief amongst who, exactly?

Because no one's opinion matters, that's why it's called freedom.
freeman

No one's opinion matters? Then why does the first amendment also guarantee the rights of free speech, press and peaceful assembly if opinions don't matter?

The Muslims are promised the freedom of religion. No one has a right to be free of criticism.

Answer me one question, which conservative has asked the government to step in and block the mosque? That would be the only action that would break the first amendment.
mightysamurai

As a comparison, what is someone wanted to build a mosque in Jersey City, NJ (home to a least a few mosques) and it was within, say, 500 feet of a school where dozens of kids lost their parents on 9/11? Should we then respect the feelings of these kids?

Jesus Christ, D-Vega. Don't strain yourself reaching that far.
the_hawk

You would respect the feelings IF you were REALLY TRYING to build bridges and understanding between aggrieved parties. Otherwise, you just don't give a damn.

BTW, I thought you had conceded this issue a couple of weeks ago?
http://www.facebook.com/jayhoffer Justin Hoffer

“Members of the community were upset that they knew nothing about the Islamic organization or its intents before the deal was made. Some insisted MAS had an affiliation with the Muslim Brotherhood, which has been questioned for terrorist practices. They were also angered that the church had agreed to make the sale without consulting the community.”

This explains everything without bigotry rather well. Unless, of course, you're an idiot. Then I could see why you would have missed the importance of this paragraph. Perhaps you didn't know, but the Muslim Brotherhood were the guys who killed Anwar Sadat. You know, the man who made peace between Israel and Egypt?
D-Vega

Justin, an accusation is only that. An accusation. No one provided any proof of such. It's simply made without backup, everyone excepts it as truth to justify their bigotry, and they go from there.
coolczech

As a comparison, what is someone wanted to build a mosque in Jersey City, NJ (home to a least a few mosques) and it was within, say, 500 feet of a school where dozens of kids lost their parents on 9/11? Should we then respect the feelings of these kids?

Wouldn't it be nice if the people that wanted to build the mosque did?
UFKA_Smithwick

“Whether or not Christians killed thousands in one place is supposed to be irrelevant”

Really? So there is nothing insensitive about putting such displays near what amount to mass graveyards? Cool, I'm building a shrine Custer atop every site of an Indian massacre I can find (he was kind of a martyr for my people, dying fighting the infidels who sought to oppress us).

“As a comparison, what is someone wanted to build a mosque in Jersey City, NJ (home to a least a few mosques) and it was within, say, 500 feet of a school where dozens of kids lost their parents on 9/11? Should we then respect the feelings of these kids? “

Less significant as it is not near the site of the actual tragedy.

“Or better yet, a Catholic Church mere feet from a school when a few kids were molested by Catholic Priests? “

As the Church didn't sponsor those abuses that wouldn't be an appropriate analogy. Better example: what if a Catholic church was built near a holocaust site where people were still ticked about the Popes tacit acceptance of the genocide?

Oh wait, that exact thing happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_cross

Funny, the Church took the feelings of the local community in to account and ordered their fellow Catholics to move it out of respect to the Jewish community.

That D, is what tolerance and interfaith cooperation looks like.

“And yes, people are looking to prevent mosques from opening anywhere they can. “

A small fringe, just as some number of Muslims want to prevent all non-muslims from living. However the vast majority of the NYC critics (who are also a majority of the US) do not feel that way.
mightysamurai

Better example: what if a Catholic church was built near a holocaust site where people were still ticked about the Popes tacit acceptance of the genocide?

The Catholic Church DID NOT condone the Holocaust, tacitly or otherwise. In fact, during the Holocaust Pope Pius XII ordered the church hierarchy to protect Jews from the Nazis. Pope Pius XII ultimately ended up saving more Jews from the death camps than Oskar Schindler.

D-Vega

I would support the rights of these people, same as anyone else.

It's their property and as long as it doesn't infringed on someone else, it must be allowed to be built.

So lighting it up every night? No right to do that. Having it be 25 feet on their property? Perfect right. End of story. Zoning doesn't play into this at all.

http://www.wordaroundthenet.com Christopher Taylor

Its their property, they can light it up if they want, that's their right. RIGHTS are unlimited; free expression of those rights have limits.

D-Vega

As long as they don't impose on others. A lit cross 24 ft tall could do that.

TheDickNixon

Day 14 of Ramadamadingdong, 86 worldwide terror attacks by muslims, 379 dead.
Cubsfanbudman74

What are they getting in Vermont per foster child, 13K/yr. WHEW. Multiply that by 35 and volois almost a halfmillion bucks. HMMM. I could build a really nice sanctuary for that.
X2getn2une

Be tolerant………

Islam is not a religion. It is a government which has a national religion. It requires its citizens to worship the national religion or be killed and to kill all those who oppose it. I just love TOLERENCE.

Ed Klein on ‘The Amateur: Barack Obama in the White House’

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