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Kneecapping Barack Obama at every opportunity. | ||
Thanks to our participants,
-- Charles Johnson from Little Green Footballs.
-- John Little from Blogs of War.
-- Damian Penny from Daimnation!
-- Ben Shapiro, a syndicated columnist with Town Hall among other publications, who also runs Ben Shapiro Online.
-- Allison Kaplan Sommer, an Israeli who wrote for "The Jerusalem Post" for 12 years and now runs An Unsealed Room. Now on to the discussion...
John Hawkins: To begin with, do you think the "Roadmap to Peace" can succeed?
Charles Johnson: Nope. That was easy.
Damian Penny: The Roadmap looks OK on paper, but it's meaningless until the Palestinian culture of hate is changed. That, more than anything else, is the real problem.
Charles Johnson: It's based on the same old denial of reality that has failed time and again. The reality of Arab rejection of Israel's right to exist.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: There have been Israeli politicians on the radio today who are NOT doves and they say, let's call their bluff, let's accept the Roadmap and see if they can really crack down on the terror.
Damian Penny: ...And I see where they're coming from. Problem is, it might be the morally correct thing to do, but the EU and UN, among others, will just ignore it and keep giving the Palestinians an infinite number of second chances.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: A lot of Israelis think that if we can really hold their feet to the fire and force them to break up Hamas and Jihad. That it would be worth it.
Damian Penny: If the world would actually pay attention to what the PA is doing and be prepared to criticize them and cut off their funding, I'd agree with the politicians Allison mentions.
John Hawkins: Yeah, but what happens if they DON'T breakup Hamas and Islamic Jihad? So far, the answer has been nothing. It would be great if it happens, but who's going to punish them for not doing it?
Damian Penny: The EU has already shown that it never will. Neither will the UN. That leaves the US to do so.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: Well, that's the key question...would the US do it?
John Little: I think we are doing that to some extent. The nature of our involvement has changed considerably.
Ben Shapiro: As long as the US pledges itself to a Palestinian state, no. The Palestinians lose nothing by killing Israelis.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: Well, presumably the US pledges itself to a state IF they do X.Y, and Z.
Ben Shapiro: Yes, but the option doesn't come off the table if they don't do X Y and Z.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: It can be on the table, but it won't happen until..
Charles Johnson: That's the real problem. It always comes down to the rejection.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: So what's the answer? Sit tight and do nothing?
Ben Shapiro: The answer is this: tell them that for every terror attack, Israel will begin taking back land and annexing it.
John Hawkins: Do you think a majority of Palestinians want peace?
John Little: On their terms maybe.
Ben Shapiro: Their terms being no Israel.
Damian Penny: No. The problem is, most Palestinians simply do not want a two-state solution. They've been force-fed propaganda and myths about it for 50 years.
Charles Johnson: Every poll of Palestinians seems to indicate they are still caught up in the dream of destroying Israel.
Ben Shapiro: It was a real mistake for Ariel Sharon to pin this all on Arafat. This goes much deeper, to the Palestinians themselves. Now, Arafat appoints a new leader and forces Sharon to come to the table. Even though Abu Mazen is a terrorist just as Arafat is.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: Sharon won't move a muscle until there is real dismantling of the terrorist infrastructure. That's what all the analysts here with good sources say.
Damian Penny: ...And he shouldn't.
John Hawkins: So let's talk realistically here -- what would have to happen for their to be a real two state solution?
Damian Penny: The Palestinians would have to start loving their children more than they hate Israel, as Golda Meir once said. The incitement from the Palestinians' 'allies' in Saudi Arabia et al must stop as well.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: The Palestinians would have to get a clue. It really feels like we are all just waiting for Arafat to die. It's frustrating -- the ball is completely in their court.
Ben Shapiro: It won't be enough. Hamas will take over, or Fatah, or even Mazen. It doesn't matter.
Charles Johnson: When you really see the depth of hatred for Israel in the Arab world, it's awfully hard to find much optimism.
John Hawkins: If the goal is "Land for Peace" and we want to see a two state solution in the next 5-10 years, is it possible?
Charles Johnson: I think "Land for Peace" has failed over and over, and will always fail.
Ben Shapiro: The goal shouldn't be "Land for Peace". That's called blackmail.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: The goal is for everyone to leave each other the heck alone.
John Hawkins: Personally, I don't think it's going to work. However, the whole current structure is currently based around "Land for Peace".
Ben Shapiro: The structure needs to be trashed.
Charles Johnson: The real craziness of the current approach (to me) is that we keep trying to negotiate in the middle of a war. Negotiation is something that happens AFTER a war.
John Little: I think the only solution for the entire Middle East is the carrot and stick approach we see developing now. Work with the moderates, lift them up. And kill the fanatics...
Ben Shapiro: What I'm proposing is transferring the fanatics...all 3 million of them.
Damian Penny: The worst of the worst, the terror leaders, the genocide-inciters...I have no problem with transferring them.
John Hawkins: Well, let's talk transfer -- do you think that can work?
Damian Penny: No.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: Transfer is not going to happen guys.
Ben Shapiro: Allison, didn't say it's going to happen, but it's what has to happen. I think it can happen, but it will take a sea change in Israel.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: Not without real provocation.
John Hawkins: See, I think you're going to have that real provocation. Because what we're doing now isn't going to work and eventually someone is going to kill 400-500 Israelis or set off a dirty bomb and I think that Israel will embrace transfer then.
Ben Shapiro: The provocation is there. If killing babies in restaurants isn't provocation, what is?
John Little: Transfer could work but only if the situation got much, much worse.
Charles Johnson: Transfer could only work if the surrounding Arab states would be willing to take in Palestinians and they're not.
Damian Penny: Under almost any circumstances - and I can think of no other way to put it - a massive transfer would sink Israel to the level of its neighbors. I support Israel because I *don't* think they've sunk to that level.
John Hawkins: I don't see anything ethically wrong with it Damian when faced with the alternative -- which is unending terrorist attacks.
Damian Penny: If you think Israel is a pariah state now, imagine what would happen if it carried out transfer?
John Hawkins: I think Israel would benefit long term public relations wise if they transferred the Palestinians. Reason being, the way the things are moving, this whole situation is still going to be going on decades from now (if the Israelis aren't all dead by then). What's the opinion of the world going to be then?
Allison Kaplan Sommer: The demographics are why even the right in Israel now wants to get rid of the West Bank and Gaza.
Ben Shapiro: But, the issue isn't getting rid of the land, it should be moving the Palestinians off it.
Charles Johnson: That's why they're insisting on the 'right of return.'
Allison Kaplan Sommer: The demographics are why even the right in Israel now wants to get rid of the West Bank and Gaza.
Ben Shapiro: Right, Allison.
Charles Johnson: The Palestinian Arabs know that, too.
Ben Shapiro: What would the US say if Israel democratically elects a Ghadaffi (because of the right of return)?
Allison Kaplan Sommer: I read on someone's blog today that there are more Palestinians (not Israeli Arabs) living in Israel illegally than there are settlers in the territories.
John Hawkins: So, the right of return? How should it be dealt with?
Ben Shapiro: Never.
Damian Penny: It's off the table.
Charles Johnson: There is no 'right of return.' It's a DEMAND of return.
Ben Shapiro: And this is the problem. No matter what Israel concedes, the Palestinians will come up with another demand. Hizbollah did that in the north. Israel withdrew from Lebanon, and Hizbollah claimed Shabaa farms.
John Hawkins: I wouldn't put it on the table either, but these people can't live in camps the rest of their lives. What is to be done with them?
Allison Kaplan Sommer: I'd be willing to talk compensation -- as long as the Jews who left Arab lands get compensated too. A lot of people think Israel needs to spin harder on the fact that so many Israelis are Jews from Arab countries. So please point out in your blogs that our foreign minister was born in Tunisia. Our defense Minister was born in Iran, as was our president. How about their right of return?
Charles Johnson: Excellent point, Allison.
Ben Shapiro: I agree with Allison
Damian Penny: I agree with Allison, but any compensation has to be for those who were forced out, not those who left voluntarily.
John Hawkins: Whether they get monetary compensation or not, where do they go? Israeli can't take them in and function as a viable state.
Charles Johnson: Israel will never agree to this demand. It's a dead issue.
Ben Shapiro: Exactly.
John Hawkins: None of the surrounding nations want them either. So where do they go? To me, until that's dealt with, there can be no hope of a peaceful solution.
Damian Penny: They have to be absorbed into the states where the 'refugee camps' are located - just as the Jews were absorbed into Israel. The thing is, these 'camps' are cities in all but name and they should be treated as such.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: The Barak-Camp David formula involved monetary compensation and letting a very few come back.
John Little: I don't think they're going anywhere frankly.
John Hawkins: See to me, I don't see any way to talk about a 'Roadmap to Peace' unless something as fundamental as this can be dealt with.
Damian Penny: The UN is half the problem with this refugee issue.
John Hawkins: Speaking of the settlements, I think they're a legitimate issue, but I think they're a minor issue that has been blown way out of proportion.
Damian Penny: I'd say it's more than 'minor', but I agree about it being blown out of proportion.
Ben Shapiro: Hawk, why are they a legitimate issue? They might be a negotiating roadblock, but you're assuming negotiation is the answer.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: Well, if you are planning a Palestinian state, they have to be addressed.
John Hawkins: Because they've been blown up into an issue by the Palestinians. Whether you think they should be there or not, they do have a bearing on any sort of settlement that might happen without the Palestinians all being driven away at the point of a gun.
Ben Shapiro: Why not drive them away at the point of a gun? Why is it OK for the Jordanians and Lebanese to do it, but not the Israelis, who are legitimately threatened?
John Hawkins: It may come to that one day Ben, but I hope it doesn't have too.
Ben Shapiro: It has already come to that. After 50 years, it certainly has been given enough time.
John Little: I think the Palestinians are a symptom, not the problem itself. That's why this endless debate solves nothing. It's all chatter.
John Hawkins: So what's the real problem then John?
John Little: The real problem is the Muslim opposition to the Jewish presence on the Middle East. If not the planet itself.
Damian Penny: Exactly. It's not just the Palestinians who have to change - it's the Saudis, Iranians, Syrians, Egyptians, etc. The cultural climate in these countries is just like Nazi Germany.
John Hawkins: I agree that today the majority of Palestinians and surrounding states do not want peace with Israel and will accept nothing less than it's destruction.
John Little: The Palestinians have been endlessly manipulated by Arab governments who don't give a rats *ss about their cause. They've been used.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: Don't hate me for saying this, but the hopelessness of you all on the far right sort of resembles the hopelessness on the far left. Except you say the only solution is transfer and they say the only solution is for Israel to pack it in.
Damian Penny: I don't think it's completely hopeless.
Charles Johnson: I'm not hopeless, actually. I think the only real way to solve this is to continue with a very hard line. Respond to terrorism with strong, forceful action, not with negotiation.
John Little: I'm not saying it's hopeless. I'm saying that our the new direction leaves me optimistic.
John Hawkins: I think negotiation is possible, but not unless we deal things realistically and I don't see any government in the world, Israel and America included, doing so.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: I didn't mean you ALL, I meant a few of you.
Ben Shapiro: I'm not hopeless. I hope for a safe and secure Israel. The only way for that to happen is to move out the Arabs.
Charles Johnson: The only reason we even have this 'roadmap' to nowhere on the table is because of Afghanistan, and Iraq, and Operation Defensive Shield.
Ben Shapiro: It's because we wanted to save Blair.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: Payback to Tony Blair
Damian Penny: Agreed.
John Little: I think it starts with removing to the greatest extent possible the support for Palestinian hatred and violence that comes from places like Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq (done), and others.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: England! Home of the most recent suicide bombers.
Charles Johnson: But, the real weakness of the roadmap is that it's terribly premature. What about the security wall? What's the feeling about in Israel, Allison?
Allison Kaplan Sommer: Build it high and tall!
Charles Johnson: But can it work?
Allison Kaplan Sommer: It's worth a shot, in everyone's opinion.
Ben Shapiro: Allison, it's too much territory. The fence is unpoliceable (to coin a term). Only a fence around Gaza is viable.
Damian Penny: I was against a wall once, but now I think there's really not much choice.
Ben Shapiro: Cutting Israel to nine miles in width isn't good policy.
John Little: The world is full of walled cities that were overrun. But, if I lived in Israel I would be building the wall myself. :)
Damian Penny: Overrun by armies - but if a wall can keep most suicide bombers out, it's worth it.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: There is a fence around Gaza. That's why they have to lob homemade missiles instead of sending suicide bombers.
Charles Johnson: One thing that worries me very much is that all this talking and negotiating is just cover while the Arab kleptocracies work like mad to gain nuclear weapons. Iran is very close already.
Damian Penny: Hopefully, Iran is on the verge of falling.
Ben Shapiro: Damian, you're very hopeful today, lol.
John Hawkins: That's a side issue, but were I running things in Israel, I would do anything it took to stop Iran from developing nukes. Better war than that...
Damian Penny: Agreed.
Allison Kaplan Sommer: Guys, I'm going to sleep now...I'm sorry, but I have small kids that jump on me at 6 AM.
John Hawkins: Night Allison.
Damian Penny: See you Allison.
Ben Shapiro: OK, gnight, thanks for chatting.
Charles Johnson: G'night Allison. Thanks for participating. Happy mother's day!
[Allison has Left the room.]
[Damian has Left the room.]
Charles Johnson: Oh well. Just the dudes left now.
Ben Shapiro: lol
[Damian has Entered the room.]
John Hawkins: Lol. Damian, Charles ripped you..lol. (<-- Damian has Left the room. Oh well. Just the dudes left now.)
Charles Johnson: Heh! Damian > I declare a fatwa against him!
Charles Johnson: You won't be the first...lol.
Damian Penny: Lol. Charles, if people like that hate you, you're doing something right.
John Hawkins: Let's say they managed to implement a two state solution. Does anyone think that would cut down on the terrorism?
Charles Johnson: Nope. It would facilitate the terrorism. A sovereign state has borders, naval rights, etc. It would just make it easier for the other Arabs to get weapons to the Pals.
Damian Penny: It won't satisfy the likes of Hamas, but it might - MIGHT - placate much of mainstream Palestinian society.
Ben Shapiro: Still optimistic!
Damian Penny: To be honest, Ben, I think we have to keep some hope.
Ben Shapiro: High hopes mean more dead Israelis.
John Little: I don't think that the mere existence of two states would effect terrorism. I think a willingness to topple any government supporting it will though.
Ben Shapiro: John, Israel hasn't even shown that willingness when the PA doesn't have a state.
Damian Penny: All I can say is, if you told me Germany circa 1938 could be changed, I'd have laughed at you. If they (or imperial Japan) can be changed, the Palestinians can be changed.
John Little: I agree Damian. However, the difference between the Palestinians and Germany/Japan was the extent to which the beliefs have been instilled in people.
Charles Johnson: It took a crushing defeat for the Germans to change, Damian. Far more crushing than anything planned for the Pals.
John Hawkins: I think theoretically the Palestinian culture could be changed, but practically I'm not sure how to go about it.
Ben Shapiro: The problem is that the Israeli gov mixes up the theoretical and the practical. They negotiate based on hopes & that is stupidity.
Damian Penny: I don't know. Most Germans had been completely indoctrinated by 1938.
Charles Johnson: That's why I keep coming back to an overwhelming military victory as the only solution.
Damian Penny: I agree with you Charles, but I don't think overwhelming victory = transfer.
Ben Shapiro: I do. When does it come?
Charles Johnson: When the Palestinians are begging for a truce.
Ben Shapiro: They will never beg for a truce. Muslim nations do not "truce". It's a sign of weakness.
John Hawkins: I don't know Ben, Egypt and Israel have been at peace (really more of a truce) for a long time.
Charles Johnson: But, it's a cold peace. Egypt has been covertly supporting the Intifada from the very beginning.
Damian Penny: Sadly, I'm not sure how long that truce with Egypt will last. When they're making a 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' miniseries, something has to give.
Ben Shapiro: Exactly. Egypt and Israel have a truce because Israel has a nuke pointed at the Aswan Dam. Look at Saddam. He knew he was going down, and it didn't matter that he would lose. He still fought it out.
Charles Johnson: But his army didn't.
Damian Penny: Actually, Saddam ran like a little girl. It was islamofascists from other countries who did the real fighting
Ben Shapiro: The Palestinians ARE Islamofascists. Even this new PM, Mazen, supports the Intifada.
Damian Penny: And that goes back to culture, once again.
Ben Shapiro: Yes, but not culture -- Religion. This is about fanatic Islam. It will always be that way. No military victory will change it.
John Hawkins: I think the spreading of Democracy could help a lot, but that's a long, painful, unsteady & uncertain process.
Damian Penny: Hopefully, the defeat of Iraq will start that process.
John Hawkins: A revolution in Iran would help a lot as well.
Ben Shapiro: The Palestinians are their own group. It doesn't matter to them what happens elsewhere. After all, they tried and topple their allies in Lebanon and Jordan.
John Hawkins: Well they still have to get cash & supplies from somewhere Ben...
Ben Shapiro: I agree, but it won't end anything.
Charles Johnson: The defeat of Iraq has big implications for the Pals. There was a lot of Iraqi money flowing into the territories, and it has dried up now. Saudi Arabia has been funding the Intifada to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars.
Damian Penny: Personally, I think all of it - ALL of it - comes back to Saudi Arabia. The Saudis are the biggest fanatics and the biggest backers of terror - just about everywhere. It infuriates me to see how close the Bush administration is to them - almost as bad as Chirac and Saddam.
John Little: I think that our relationship with Saudi Arabia will change a great deal once Iraq settles down.
John Hawkins: I agree. I think we're going to start working the Saudis now that Iraq has fallen.
Damian Penny: Unfortunately, that won't happen with Bush in power. Not as much as it should, anyway. Bush's ties with the Saudis go way back. Why do you think Abdullah was invited to the ranch in Crawford?
Ben Shapiro: This isn't about Bush. Clinton was buddy-buddy with the princes of the sand as well. Let's not bash the best President for Israel and Middle East relations that ever lived.
John Hawkins: The Saudis are willing to fund the Palestinians as long as they keep blowing themselves up -- If the Israelis were gone one of the surrounding states would probably invade the Pals themselves.
Damian Penny: I think the Saudis were split on the Iraq issue - they don't mind seeing Saddam gone, but they just want an opening to promote Islamofascism and the US has to put it's foot down. Against Iran, too.
Charles Johnson: You know, if Osama and his boys could have waited just a few more years, while the US slept they could have struck a really crushing blow against us.
Ben Shapiro: If they had nukes, this would be an even more serious problem.
Damian Penny: Absolutely. One more question before I go: does anyone think there will be another 9/11?
John Hawkins: Damian, yeah it's entirely possible.
Ben Shapiro: Not another 9/11, but several smaller terrorist attacks. So then why push Israel into concessions and make us appear weak?
Charles Johnson: I agree, Ben. I'm disgusted with this Roadmap nonsense and yes, I do think another 9/11 attack (or worse) is not only possible, but likely.
John Hawkins: I think the whole Roadmap is ill-conceived and has no chance of working as it's set up.
John Little: I think there will be worse. Time and technology are not on our side. The creation of WMD can only get easier in the future.
Damian Penny: Sadly, I think there will be another 9/11 as well. As someone said, they just have to get lucky once.
Ben Shapiro: It took 8 years of Clinton for them to get lucky. I don't think we'll be as lax, unless another Dem is elected.
John Hawkins: And that's all the time we have. Thanks for participating everyone.
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