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May 29, 2009
John Hawkins Mancow's Waterboarding Faked? Update: Email Response From Mancow's Publicist Added

Via Five Feet of Fury, I came across a story at Gawker that seems to show "Mancow" Muller's waterboarding was faked!

Here's the key email that was sent, one day before he was waterboarded,

From: [redacted]
Date: Thu, May 21, 2009 at 1:38 PM
To: [redacted]
Cc: [redacted]
Subject: Re: URGENT

You are a ROCK STAR!!!

It is going to have to look "real" but of course would be simulated with Mancow acting like he is drowning. It will be a hoax but have to look real. Would be great if they could dress in fatigues and bring whatever is needed. We will supply the water

Of course, they're denying this is a hoax, but assuming Gawker has the real deal -- and I have no reason to think that they don't -- I doubt they'll stick to their story for long.

Now, here's a guy who's supposed to be a "right wing" shock jock (I've heard of the guy, but have never listened to his show nor even knew prior to his waterboarding that he was supposed to be "right wing"). So naturally, when he said waterboarding was "torture," liberals loved it. It made news all over the place. This guy was on Olbermann. He got tremendous publicity out of this -- and meanwhile, it was playing all of you. All you liberals got suckered. I love it!

Let me also just say this: not only is Mancow a worthless piece of human debris for doing this, all of the liberals who rushed out to shout, "Waterboarding is torture because Mancow says so" are almost as idiotic as the guy who hoaxed you.

Take a look at the video.

Now, consider the facts as people knew them, even before he admitted this was a hoax:

1) Mancow volunteered to do this live on his radio show. How many people would genuinely volunteer to be tortured? Anybody out there want to have your toes broken with a hammer? Okay then, who wants to have bamboo shoots jammed under your fingernails? Anybody? All right, lets go halfway and use a technique the terrorists actually use against our guys -- who volunteers to have a power drill run through his leg? Nobody? But, but, but...people are falling all over themselves to get waterboarded, so they can talk to the press about it? Why aren't they willing to have these other forms of "torture" done to them? It's obvious. The reason people are willing to be waterboarded is that while it may be extremely unpleasant, it's not torture. They know it will be a short, miserable experience, then it will be over and they'll suffer no lasting effects or trauma from the experience.

2) 30 seconds after Mancow was waterboarding, he was talking live on the radio. How can that be if it's "torture?"

Let me just put it this way: waterboarding isn't torture. I'm not the least bit sorry, embarrassed, or troubled that it was used at Guantanamo Bay. In fact, I wouldn't have been troubled if it had been used on fifty times as many prisoners. They're terrorists who use real torture on our men. Stop crying into your pillow about how tough they have it. Last but not least, I hope the United States uses waterboarding again after Obama is out of office.

Update #1: Mancow has responded to the people saying his waterboarding was faked and to his credit, it's at Big Hollywood, not at the Daily Beast, where the pretend conservatives post.

Bored Bloggers Are All Wet

I am not a magician. Many news cameras were there!
Obviously, it was on the radio and I wasn't in prison. I'm also not a radicalized Muslim terrorist. But it was not a hoax! I repeat: NOT A HOAX.

We kept telling management, the insurance companies, and the local Chicago cops we weren't really going to do it until we did. Otherwise, they weren't gonna let us do it!

...It would be insane to equate what I did with anything that happens in prison. I am simply a free man in a radio studio that always tries to get inside the big issues. This is an ugly issue with no easy answers. But I now see it's easier for some to dismiss me than to do any real soul searching on this very heady issue.

I learned about this post from an email I received from Linda Shafran, the publicist, who sent the "It will be a hoax" email.

Quite naturally, I had some questions. So, we had a brief email exchange, most of which I am going to excerpt here.

John Hawkins: So, just to be clear: Are you saying the email Gawker has up is fake?

Linda Shafran: There was nothing fake about the waterboarding.

John Hawkins: I am having a hard time reconciling the fact that you say that it was a real waterboarding (with the fact that) these lines were written the day before:

"It is going to have to look "real" but of course would be simulated
with Mancow acting like he is drowning. It will be a hoax but have to
look real."

If it's a real waterboarding, can you give me an explanation that makes sense for those lines? Again, I am willing to be convinced, but it's hard to square the idea that this was real with that email.

Linda Shafran: Per Mancow's statement:

We kept telling management, the insurance companies, and the local Chicago cops we weren't really going to do it - until we did. Otherwise, they weren't gonna let us do it!

John Hawkins: Linda

That would make sense -- except this was a private email, was it not? Was there someone from the management, insurance companies, or local police who was cc'd on the emails?

Again, I'm just trying to make sure I understand.

As of yet, I haven't gotten a response to the last email and if I get one that makes sense, I'll be certain to post it.

Here's the problem: there's still no explanation for what happened. It's understandable that they wouldn't want management, insurance companies, or local police to know about it prior to the event happening, for fear of their stopping it. But, why would they still be referring to it as fake during private email conversations?

It doesn't make any sense and although, just as I said in the email, I am keeping an open mind and willing to be persuaded otherwise, I don't think Mancow's post at Big Hollywood changes things one iota. For the moment, it still looks like Mancow faked the whole thing as a publicity stunt.

PS: Olbermann knew this whole thing was a fake when he put Mancow on the air. If MSNBC had any journalistic integrity, at a minimum, they would suspend Olbermann for a couple of weeks over this,

Astonishingly, MSNBC is standing by its flackery for Muller's hoax. An MSNBC spokeswoman acknowledged that Olbermann's producers had been made aware prior to airing the Muller interview that his publicist had described it as a hoax, saying, "We asked the publicist and were assured by her that she just used a poor choice of words." But when asked if MSNBC still believes that publicist, in light of the fact that Muller's waterboarder had no idea what he was doing, she declined to comment.
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I like! I don't like. Score: John Hawkins | 11:49 AM | Permalink  

Note: Comments and Trackbacks for this entry closed on June 3, 2009 11:50 AM
Comments (29)
I have never been impressed by this guy.
I've never listened to, or wanted to listen to someone who uses the attention-seeking name of "Mancow". Sorry, but my time is worth more than that.

Here's a hint for ya:

If you don't know if it's torture until you experience it for yourself... it isn't.
"I'm not the least bit sorry, embarrassed, or troubled that it was used at Guantanamo Bay."

The last I heard, waterboarding was never used AT GITMO. I would be curious to know it any enhanced interrogation techniques have ever been used at that facility.
Right, the mancow video was "real" as far as he was laying on a board and had water poured on him, but if you compare it to the Hitchens video on the link it looks phony as hell. Plus nobody in their right mind would agree to something they might consider torture by some guy they more or less pull off the streets in what is obviously not a carefully monitored and controlled situation.

I listened to his show occasionally, but never again if this is true. But considering he's a very libertarian-leaning talk show host, I can't say I'm surprised. A couple days ago he was agreeing with a guest who was saying the police should never hit or harm anybody (unarmed anyways), even a raging out of control maniac high on PCP. So he's obviously anti-authoritarian and doesn't have a problem throwing anybody in the government under the bus.
Human debris, indeed! All these so-called "shock" personalities on the radio swim in the same toilet. Anything to get attention. Imus is the worst. At least Stern has talent, even though he insists on taking the low road.
Mancow got himself "waterboarded" (if you can call it that.. yes, the difference between his video and the one from Hitchens are obvious)... admits its torture (here's his statement from an email (at least I'm guessing it's his email he posted on http://bighollywood.breitbart....loggers-are-all-wet/">BH)...

But maybe I'm missing the arguement...

Erich Mancow says "he believes it's torture"...


Sorry, I thought for years it wasn’t torture and now I do. The video is there for all to see.

The left has taken my message and distorted it as well. Would I waterboard to save my daughters (or any American children)? Yes!

The three terrorists that were waterboarded at Guantanamo were done so by military professionals. And it was done to save lives with America’s best interests at heart. Mine was a silly radio time filler in comparison. It’s apples & hand grenades!


So he just took the same stance you did, John, even though you don't believe it is torture.

I'm not the least bit sorry, embarrassed, or troubled that it was used at Guantanamo Bay. In fact, I wouldn't have been troubled if it had been used on fifty times as many prisoners.


One believes it is, one believes it isn't... but both see it as valid for interrogation. am I missing anything?
I still have a hard time classifying something that people voluntarily subject themselves to as true torture. Let's visit any of the techniques used during the Spanish Inquisition to obtain confessions and ask ourselves if we would voluntarily undergo any of them for any length of time to prove to ourselve whether or not they are torture. How about any of the things that today's Islamic terrorists do to their prisoners when they catch them? Are there any of those things that you would volunteer to have done to yourself? I have little doubt that waterboarding is very scary and induces a panicked state of mind with little effort, but can you honestly say that something that causes you to flip out is torture? We routinely seek out experiences that induce panic; we call them amusement park rides and haunted houses. Sometimes we overreach and go too far with ourselves. Is that torture?

Yep, Mancow posted over there, and this is the same thing I said in reply.
Jesus Christ, the timer is right there for all to see, it was 6 seconds at the very most.

Six f-ing seconds.

That's not even long enough to be classified as a hoax nevermind the real thing.
I've said it twice on FaceBook - and there are media folks who are on my 'friends' list including one high school associate who works for HRW (sadly, he has degenerated into a liberal tool) - that I am willing to be exposed to Swine Flu, then waterboarded. I even added last time that I would be willing to fight the latest UFC champion 24 hours later - of course I'll lose, I always lose, but it's the principal of the thing.
I've said it twice on FaceBook - and there are media folks who are on my 'friends' list including one high school associate who works for HRW (sadly, he has degenerated into a liberal tool) - that I am willing to be exposed to Swine Flu, then waterboarded. I even added last time that I would be willing to fight the latest UFC champion 24 hours later - of course I'll lose, I always lose, but it's the PRINCIPLE (dammit) of the thing.
Oh there is torture, and there is inconvenience, and there is psychological torture - us anti-abortionists undergo it every moment we think about babies being murdered with our money.
Well, I also feel that getting needles is torture, and so is being crammed in un-air-conditioned trains in the summertime, along with paying taxes which reduces my ability to improve my quality of life with my own earned income. I also think having to watch my back living across the street from low-income housing, which should more accurately be called lazy housing, to be torture because I have to be on-guard all of the time, working out even when I'm sick to give myself a better chance over larger opponents because I'm being tortured by having my right to bear arms violated. I don't see that douchetard associate from HRW coming to MY rescue.
Speaking as a former WLS host (I did morning drive for 6 weeks before the 2004 election while the regular hosts were in a contract dispute), I couldn't agree with you more, John. How people can elevate this clown into some sort of brilliant conservative commentator is beyond me. Don't get me wrong. OF COURSE, Keith "caught my head in the subway door" Olbermann is going to celebrate anyone who agrees with his September 10 mentality, but what stunned me was that some conservatives were actually sucked in. Once a silly shock jock with an annoying DJ puker voice, always same. In addition, please be advised that, as noted here, he's not even really a talk show host because much of his show is scripted.

http://www.teriobrien.com/Teri_OBrien/Teri_OBrien,_Americas_Conservative_Warrior_Princess/Entries/2009/5/23_Keith_Olbermann’s_New_Best_Friend%2C_“Conservative_Radio_Talk_Show_Host”_Mancow_Mueller.html

Have a great weekend, everyone!
Best.
T
Ace of Spades HQ has a report that the waterboarding endured by this person was not done the same way as the CIA did it to those murdering animals. Here, some guy poured a pitcher of water up girlcow's nose, actually trying to drown him. His attempt = epic fail.
It could be something, it could be nothing, but...
I saw another waterboarding video a while back, I forget who it was. The procedure was VERY different from the posted youtube video. There was a lot less water, and the recipient's face was fully covered.
The men handling the water were also considerably more professional in their manner.

Maybe the differences I saw weren't particularly important to the procedure, but there were differences.

Well, regardless... now that Mancow's volunteered for torture, maybe we can get Olberman to volunteer to have the kind of crippling torture that John McCain took when he was a POW.
What right wing nuttery. None of this matters you see, because water boarding, torture or not, is illegal (except of course when it is voluntary such as this instance or when it is used in training). The fact is, if you prosecute someone for something, that means it's illegal. Whether or not, on a subjective level, it is torture (anyone who says it isn't should be required to try it) is absolutely irrelevant.
"Posted by jefro3000
2009-05-29 22:33:22 "

Is this the whole "we prosecuted the Japanese for it" meme? Someone should tell you that that's an old and debunked talking point.

1.) it was a different kind of procedure

2.) it was only one of a miles-long list of things on the charges, so you can hardly say they were prosecuted for that and only that

And "as for the you can't talk about it unless you've done it" meme, that's just a tired retread of the old chickenhawk argument.

*yawn* You really need to update your stuff. "Fear" is the new black of talking points, don't you know?
Sorry mancow, Shafran blew it. She flat out dodged the questions from Hawkins and did not deny either the authenticity of the email or provide any sort of explanation.

Besides, if the show had deceived management and the insurance companies about what they were going to do, it would not have been on the air afterward.

Mancow had some guy pour a pitcher of water over his head. It was contrived to be a risk-free visual simulation of waterboarding, which the show itself has not directly denied. Credibility totally destroyed.
Let's see if I can recap. Mancow (claims he) told everyone (publicists, insurance companies) he was going to be faking the waterboarding. He (claims he) didn't, but the guy who did the waterboarding still screwed up the procedure.

I'm willing to give Mancow the benefit of the doubt. Those darn insurance companies have kept many a Mythbusters show from being as interesting as they could've been. I'm more interested in how the waterboarding was performed - if it was botched, then whether it was faked or not is moot.
I don't think, when waterboarding was used, it was illegal - the Bush administration asked the Dept. of Justice if it were so and they said it wasn't. I mean, I'm 99% certain you are more knowledgeable in the law then the entire Justice Dept., jef, but at least it exonerates those who were told it was legal and so proceeded to humanely extract life-saving information ... why, you know, they may've even saved the life of a democrat and illegal alien or two.
http://www.usnews.com/articles...ccount.html?PageNr=1

Its a bit long but it will give you guys a good idea of what is real and is not.
That poor guy. His best years, his GLORIOUS years, were definitely behind him. It's a shame he didn't win the presidency, but those who voted against him will get theirs in the end.
Course, it's also a shame he was the RNC pick, but anyway ...
it is torture (anyone who says it isn't should be required to try it) is absolutely irrelevant.
Posted by jefro3000
2009-05-29 22:33:22

We did worse to each other in college for fraternity acts of stupidity. Your full of shit, no offense.
Mancow is finished.
He might as well go work for Obama, like the rest of his exiled, publicity-whore lot.

And for any who still want to defend him:

He went on Olbermann's show.

If you still need proof of what he is after that, you're dimwitted.
Let's visit any of the techniques used during the Spanish Inquisition to obtain confessions and ask ourselves if we would voluntarily undergo any of them for any length of time to prove to ourselve whether or not they are torture.


Posted by aharris
2009-05-29 16:17:28

Hmmm....you mean like waterboarding?


Hmmm....you mean like waterboarding?


Posted by whats_up
2009-05-31 00:48:49


I think that he meant people with a little intestinal fortitude. You think that an evening without the Lifetime channel is torture.
Posted by whats_up
2009-05-31 00:48:49

waterboarding is not torture. You are up late, I figured the small children in your town would have been home earlier.
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