Via Five Feet of Fury, I came across a story at Gawker that seems to show "Mancow" Muller's waterboarding was faked!
Here's the key email that was sent, one day before he was waterboarded,
From: [redacted]
Date: Thu, May 21, 2009 at 1:38 PM
To: [redacted]
Cc: [redacted]
Subject: Re: URGENTYou are a ROCK STAR!!!
It is going to have to look "real" but of course would be simulated with Mancow acting like he is drowning. It will be a hoax but have to look real. Would be great if they could dress in fatigues and bring whatever is needed. We will supply the water
Of course, they're denying this is a hoax, but assuming Gawker has the real deal -- and I have no reason to think that they don't -- I doubt they'll stick to their story for long.
Now, here's a guy who's supposed to be a "right wing" shock jock (I've heard of the guy, but have never listened to his show nor even knew prior to his waterboarding that he was supposed to be "right wing"). So naturally, when he said waterboarding was "torture," liberals loved it. It made news all over the place. This guy was on Olbermann. He got tremendous publicity out of this -- and meanwhile, it was playing all of you. All you liberals got suckered. I love it!
Let me also just say this: not only is Mancow a worthless piece of human debris for doing this, all of the liberals who rushed out to shout, "Waterboarding is torture because Mancow says so" are almost as idiotic as the guy who hoaxed you.
Take a look at the video.
Now, consider the facts as people knew them, even before he admitted this was a hoax:
1) Mancow volunteered to do this live on his radio show. How many people would genuinely volunteer to be tortured? Anybody out there want to have your toes broken with a hammer? Okay then, who wants to have bamboo shoots jammed under your fingernails? Anybody? All right, lets go halfway and use a technique the terrorists actually use against our guys -- who volunteers to have a power drill run through his leg? Nobody? But, but, but...people are falling all over themselves to get waterboarded, so they can talk to the press about it? Why aren't they willing to have these other forms of "torture" done to them? It's obvious. The reason people are willing to be waterboarded is that while it may be extremely unpleasant, it's not torture. They know it will be a short, miserable experience, then it will be over and they'll suffer no lasting effects or trauma from the experience.
2) 30 seconds after Mancow was waterboarding, he was talking live on the radio. How can that be if it's "torture?"
Let me just put it this way: waterboarding isn't torture. I'm not the least bit sorry, embarrassed, or troubled that it was used at Guantanamo Bay. In fact, I wouldn't have been troubled if it had been used on fifty times as many prisoners. They're terrorists who use real torture on our men. Stop crying into your pillow about how tough they have it. Last but not least, I hope the United States uses waterboarding again after Obama is out of office.
Update #1: Mancow has responded to the people saying his waterboarding was faked and to his credit, it's at Big Hollywood, not at the Daily Beast, where the pretend conservatives post.
Bored Bloggers Are All WetI am not a magician. Many news cameras were there!
Obviously, it was on the radio and I wasn't in prison. I'm also not a radicalized Muslim terrorist. But it was not a hoax! I repeat: NOT A HOAX.We kept telling management, the insurance companies, and the local Chicago cops we weren't really going to do it until we did. Otherwise, they weren't gonna let us do it!
...It would be insane to equate what I did with anything that happens in prison. I am simply a free man in a radio studio that always tries to get inside the big issues. This is an ugly issue with no easy answers. But I now see it's easier for some to dismiss me than to do any real soul searching on this very heady issue.
I learned about this post from an email I received from Linda Shafran, the publicist, who sent the "It will be a hoax" email.
Quite naturally, I had some questions. So, we had a brief email exchange, most of which I am going to excerpt here.
John Hawkins: So, just to be clear: Are you saying the email Gawker has up is fake?Linda Shafran: There was nothing fake about the waterboarding.
John Hawkins: I am having a hard time reconciling the fact that you say that it was a real waterboarding (with the fact that) these lines were written the day before:
"It is going to have to look "real" but of course would be simulated
with Mancow acting like he is drowning. It will be a hoax but have to
look real."If it's a real waterboarding, can you give me an explanation that makes sense for those lines? Again, I am willing to be convinced, but it's hard to square the idea that this was real with that email.
Linda Shafran: Per Mancow's statement:
We kept telling management, the insurance companies, and the local Chicago cops we weren't really going to do it - until we did. Otherwise, they weren't gonna let us do it!John Hawkins: Linda
That would make sense -- except this was a private email, was it not? Was there someone from the management, insurance companies, or local police who was cc'd on the emails?
Again, I'm just trying to make sure I understand.
As of yet, I haven't gotten a response to the last email and if I get one that makes sense, I'll be certain to post it.
Here's the problem: there's still no explanation for what happened. It's understandable that they wouldn't want management, insurance companies, or local police to know about it prior to the event happening, for fear of their stopping it. But, why would they still be referring to it as fake during private email conversations?
It doesn't make any sense and although, just as I said in the email, I am keeping an open mind and willing to be persuaded otherwise, I don't think Mancow's post at Big Hollywood changes things one iota. For the moment, it still looks like Mancow faked the whole thing as a publicity stunt.
PS: Olbermann knew this whole thing was a fake when he put Mancow on the air. If MSNBC had any journalistic integrity, at a minimum, they would suspend Olbermann for a couple of weeks over this,
Astonishingly, MSNBC is standing by its flackery for Muller's hoax. An MSNBC spokeswoman acknowledged that Olbermann's producers had been made aware prior to airing the Muller interview that his publicist had described it as a hoax, saying, "We asked the publicist and were assured by her that she just used a poor choice of words." But when asked if MSNBC still believes that publicist, in light of the fact that Muller's waterboarder had no idea what he was doing, she declined to comment.
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Posted by Don_cos
2009-05-29 12:19:01
Posted by martinhale
2009-05-29 12:32:19
If you don't know if it's torture until you experience it for yourself... it isn't.
Posted by kingofsiam
2009-05-29 12:46:13
The last I heard, waterboarding was never used AT GITMO. I would be curious to know it any enhanced interrogation techniques have ever been used at that facility.
Posted by fts
2009-05-29 12:51:02
I listened to his show occasionally, but never again if this is true. But considering he's a very libertarian-leaning talk show host, I can't say I'm surprised. A couple days ago he was agreeing with a guest who was saying the police should never hit or harm anybody (unarmed anyways), even a raging out of control maniac high on PCP. So he's obviously anti-authoritarian and doesn't have a problem throwing anybody in the government under the bus.
Posted by Mike_M
2009-05-29 14:39:19
Posted by riteguy
2009-05-29 15:25:13
But maybe I'm missing the arguement...
Erich Mancow says "he believes it's torture"...
So he just took the same stance you did, John, even though you don't believe it is torture.
One believes it is, one believes it isn't... but both see it as valid for interrogation. am I missing anything?
Posted by Markus
2009-05-29 16:06:45
Yep, Mancow posted over there, and this is the same thing I said in reply.
Posted by aharris
2009-05-29 16:17:28
Six f-ing seconds.
That's not even long enough to be classified as a hoax nevermind the real thing.
Posted by Glibertarian
2009-05-29 16:43:43
Posted by StMaybe
2009-05-29 17:23:30
Posted by StMaybe
2009-05-29 17:23:56
Posted by StMaybe
2009-05-29 17:31:15
Posted by StMaybe
2009-05-29 17:39:27
http://www.teriobrien.com/Teri_OBrien/Teri_OBrien,_Americas_Conservative_Warrior_Princess/Entries/2009/5/23_Keith_Olbermann’s_New_Best_Friend%2C_“Conservative_Radio_Talk_Show_Host”_Mancow_Mueller.html
Have a great weekend, everyone!
Best.
T
Posted by teriobrien
2009-05-29 17:57:48
Posted by Dick_Nixon
2009-05-29 20:21:14
I saw another waterboarding video a while back, I forget who it was. The procedure was VERY different from the posted youtube video. There was a lot less water, and the recipient's face was fully covered.
The men handling the water were also considerably more professional in their manner.
Maybe the differences I saw weren't particularly important to the procedure, but there were differences.
Well, regardless... now that Mancow's volunteered for torture, maybe we can get Olberman to volunteer to have the kind of crippling torture that John McCain took when he was a POW.
Posted by Trueblood
2009-05-29 21:44:06
Posted by jefro3000
2009-05-29 22:33:22
2009-05-29 22:33:22 "
Is this the whole "we prosecuted the Japanese for it" meme? Someone should tell you that that's an old and debunked talking point.
1.) it was a different kind of procedure
2.) it was only one of a miles-long list of things on the charges, so you can hardly say they were prosecuted for that and only that
And "as for the you can't talk about it unless you've done it" meme, that's just a tired retread of the old chickenhawk argument.
*yawn* You really need to update your stuff. "Fear" is the new black of talking points, don't you know?
Posted by aharris
2009-05-29 23:43:03
Besides, if the show had deceived management and the insurance companies about what they were going to do, it would not have been on the air afterward.
Mancow had some guy pour a pitcher of water over his head. It was contrived to be a risk-free visual simulation of waterboarding, which the show itself has not directly denied. Credibility totally destroyed.
Posted by Mike_M
2009-05-30 00:09:03
I'm willing to give Mancow the benefit of the doubt. Those darn insurance companies have kept many a Mythbusters show from being as interesting as they could've been. I'm more interested in how the waterboarding was performed - if it was botched, then whether it was faked or not is moot.
Posted by smelvertising
2009-05-30 09:19:17
Posted by StMaybe
2009-05-30 11:14:29
Its a bit long but it will give you guys a good idea of what is real and is not.
Posted by ninerdog
2009-05-30 11:14:30
Posted by StMaybe
2009-05-30 11:22:13
Posted by StMaybe
2009-05-30 11:23:46
Posted by jefro3000
2009-05-29 22:33:22
We did worse to each other in college for fraternity acts of stupidity. Your full of shit, no offense.
Posted by Dick_Nixon
2009-05-30 13:37:14
He might as well go work for Obama, like the rest of his exiled, publicity-whore lot.
And for any who still want to defend him:
He went on Olbermann's show.
If you still need proof of what he is after that, you're dimwitted.
Posted by democratsarefascists
2009-05-30 14:37:44
Posted by aharris
2009-05-29 16:17:28
Hmmm....you mean like waterboarding?
Posted by whats_up
2009-05-31 00:48:49
I think that he meant people with a little intestinal fortitude. You think that an evening without the Lifetime channel is torture.
Posted by jasamc
2009-05-31 08:08:39
2009-05-31 00:48:49
waterboarding is not torture. You are up late, I figured the small children in your town would have been home earlier.
Posted by Dick_Nixon
2009-05-31 10:06:59