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Ground Zero Mosque Update: Has The Worm Started To Turn?

Written By : John Hawkins

Pamela Geller & Robert Spencer deserve credit for being on point in the fight against the mosque at Ground Zero. They were first out of the gates and of course, the pioneers get hit with most of the arrows. Both of them were unfairly attacked, maligned, and pilloried as racists, bigots, and generally horrible people for not wanting a mosque built practically on top of the corpses of the people who were murdered by radical Islamists in the name of Islam.

Eventually, they drew attention to what was going on and more of us started speaking out. Then, God bless her, Sarah Palin jumped in. That’s when it officially became okay for the GOP to get involved en masse — and along with Joe Lieberman, the ADL, and other groups, they did. This made sense, because multiple polls show that the people of New York and the American people are against having this mosque. Still, the liberal elite in New York were wholeheartedly in favor of the idea and let’s face it: They run things there. So, it still seemed entirely possible that despite all of the public pressure, the mosque was fated to go forward anyway.

However, yesterday things changed and for the first time, the odds started to even out a bit. Although Greg Gutfeld’s promise to build a gay bar next to the mosque was an absolutely brilliant political stunt, it wasn’t a game changer.

There were also reports that the mosque owners didn’t have all the property they needed to defile Ground Zero with their celebratory mosque. However, those reports appear to be in error,

The New York Post reported Sunday that Con Ed’s ownership of 49-51 Park Place could be an obstacle for the Islamic center.

However, Soho Properties, the mosque’s developer, signed a long-term lease on the building last year and “has rights to use, alter, demolish or renovate the building,” Con Ed said.

The utility plans to eventually sell the former substation building to Soho Properties, as long as the developer pays a fee set by an independent appraiser.

Regardless of whether the sale goes through, plans for the Islamic center, called Park51, can still move forward under the current lease, which lasts until 2071, Con Ed said.

“We are following our legal obligations under the lease,” Con Ed said. “We will not allow other considerations to enter into this transaction.”

However, the most significant development involved comments by liberal New York Governor David Patterson about the mosque,

Paterson said he supports putting the Islamic cultural center Park51 at its proposed site two blocks from the World Trade Center.

But he also expressed sympathy for opponents, who say the location is insensitive to 9/11 victims and could be a breeding ground for terrorists.

“Frankly, if the sponsors were looking for property anywhere at a distance that would be such that it would accommodate a better feeling among the people who are frustrated, I would look into trying to provide them with the state property they would need,” Paterson said at a Manhattan press conference.

Paterson said the anxiety felt by mosque opponents was “not without cause” and that New York still suffers from the Sept. 11 attacks.

Paterson stressed however that he has no objections to the proposed center, which houses a mosque, and that there is “no reason” why it should not be built.

“We have to remember sometimes that it’s the fanaticism of religions that have driven people to do what they do, not the worship of the religion itself,” Paterson said. “And so I don’t have any objection to it being built there, but I am very sensitive to the desire of those who are adamant against it to see something else worked out.”

You have to remember that the Left’s response to very reasonable objections to putting a mosque up on that spot have consisted almost entirely of screaming, “SHUT UP, YOU BIGOTS!!!!!” So, if Patterson is willing to acknowledge that complaints about the mosque have merit and is gently suggesting that they move, it means the Left in New York has concluded this is a losing fight and they’d like it to go away.

That’s very important because anyone who builds, funds, or attends this mosque is going to become radioactive on the Right. If the Left comes to view people involved with the mosque as a liability, too, then it may actually change some minds. That’s because people can bear being pariahs to one group if they get acclaim from another in exchange, but no one wants to be despised by everyone. That’s where this mosque project is headed at this point and since shame and human decency don’t seem to be a factor for the people running it, fear of being a pariah may be the only thing that can stop them.

0

NifeFite

You know its not actually a mosque right. Just one of those tiny little details.

baoxian

Right, the structure isn't a mosque. It just contains one. And so much more. Feisal Abdul Rauf and friends will be able to shoot hoops and enjoy a tasty snack while hating the Jews and overlooking Ground Zero.

http://conservativebootcamp.com Martin Hale

Right, the structure isn't a mosque. It just contains one.

I think our liberal troll friend didn't read quite that far in whatever source article he scanned.

http://www.facebook.com/people/TheDark-Knight/100001438641512 TheDark Knight

Quite the benefit of the doubt Martin .. you assume trolls can read

the_hawk

I believe the lesson here is never bring a nifefite to a baoxin match…

earlgrey133

Was it worth it?
StanW

You know you are an idiot, right? The project is called the Cordoba House Mosque.

Drive-by-troll

D'OH!

StanW

Very insightful, Drive By. You are a credit to your species.

Scorched Earth

If this mosque is built. I suggest that we set up a hot dog stand in front.

John__C

Right next to all the hundreds of other hot dog stands in New York, that is. I'm not sure your clever little act of civil disobedience will be noticed by anyone but yourself.

Christopher_Taylor

There's a lot of us who were writing about this before it became a big story, but it takes bigger high-profile blogs to get noticed.

At this time it looks like maybe this is going to fall through, and I credit Gutman for having the best response: open a gay non-alcoholic club across the street.
StanW

From the Developer of the Cordoba House Mosque on the proposal by the governor to get the mosque build, but away from Ground Zero…
“While we have a tremendous amount of respect for our governor, and we are always interested in hearing what our leaders have to say, and what their ideas and proposals are. But this has always been about serving Lower Manhattan,” said proposed mosque developer Sharif El-Gamal.

No, this has alwasy been about building a monument to the Muslim conquest in New York.

Bastards!

John__C

Last time I checked, the Freedom Tower is going to rise from Ground Zero even taller than the WTC. Since when would that be considered a “conquest”?

StanW

Last time I checked, Ground Zero was a large hole in the ground with no firm plans for ANYTHING. Get the WTC rebuilt, AND all the surrounding building AND CHURCHES that were originally there.

John__C

Since al-Qaeda obviously isn't in charge of building the Freedom Tower, what you're actually saying is that Larry Silverstein and the Port Authority have conquered themselves.

StanW

Not what I am saying at all John. I'm saying that a lot of New York needs to be rebuilt, but the focus seems to be appeasing Muslims.
John__C

Why not let those responsible for building the Freedom Tower build the Freedom Tower, those responsible for rebuilding the surrounding buildings rebuild the surrounding buildings, and those responsible for the Cordoba Center build the Cordoba Center. Life's a lot less complicated that way.

From all that I've seen, the great exertion in the Cordoba House controversy has been by those opposing it. Most of the politicians are too busy with their fingers in the wind to spend their time defending a politically unpopular undertaking.

I just wish that the people who are so upset about the Cordoba House were just as angry that the Freedom Tower remains a damn hole in the ground after nearly a decade. That's not the fault of Imam Rauf or anyone else connected with the Cordoba Center.
StanW

John, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you are simply out of the loop. There have been many local NY politicians falling all over themselves to get this mosque built, primarily Mayor Bloomberg.

Most of us are highly annopyed that Ground Zeros is still a hole, and that St. Nicholas, which was destroyed in the attacks have not been rebuilt. It is adding insult to injury that all of thiose get set aside and a mosque (specifically a mosque designed to be a deliberate provocation to the West) is fast-tracked through the system.

And as far as the Iman goes, anyone that thinks America is in any was responsible for whay ha[ppened on 9/11 has no business lecturing us on ANYTHING!
John__C

You mean like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell?

Ironically, Robertson's organization, the ACLJ, is busy trying to tie up the Cordoba House in litigation. It's steadfast opposition to the Cordoba House is kind of like the pot calling the kettle black.
StanW

And why is that, John? Do you think it is OK for the government to be supporting the building of a mosque? What happened to the separation of church and state.

BTW, Falwell is dead. You might want to move past your hatred of him.
John__C

If by “supporting” you mean recognizing the importance of religious institutions to the adherents of those religions and not standing in the way of them engaging in their private projects, yes. Otherwise, government isn't and shouldn't be in the business of religion.
StanW

Then what is your issue with Pat Robertson taking on the Cordoba House Mosque?
Mediumheadboy

Jerry Falwell's dead, in case you haven't noticed, you fucking twit.
http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

Who's to say they aren't upset, but how does a protest to hurry construction of the Freedom Tower?

John__C

The irony about Gutfield's comments is that Islam is fully aligned with most Christian denominations in its anti-homosexuality.

I hope you'd find it equally amusing if someone put a gay bar next to a cathedral or a synagogue.

http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

Yeah because Christians are known to stone homosexuals. Get a clue, Johnny.

John__C

I'm kinda thinking we're not going to be seeing any stoning in the middle of Manhattan. You're free, of course, to indulge in your fantasies if you believe otherwise.

You also seem to be forgetting that quite a number of U.S. Christians in recent months have advocated for the proposed law in Uganda that would execute homosexuals for the “crime” of being homosexual. Right here at home through 2003, states were free to make it a “crime” to be homosexual, and plenty of Christians were (and still are) against Lawrence v. Texas, which ruled such laws unconstitutional.

Let's see how tolerant those folks would be about Gutfield's gay bar next door.

mightysamurai

I'm kinda thinking we're not going to be seeing any stoning in the middle of Manhattan.

Right. Just like everyone thought we'd never see any Muslim honor killings in Europe.

John__C

If you can identify any stonings in Manhattan, or anywhere within a hundred, no a thousand, miles from Manhattan, please be my guest.

As for honor killings, it's no doubt a disgusting practice, which is of course against the law across Europe and punishable by the full force of the law. It has been widely condemned by mainstream Christians and Muslims alike.
UFKA_Smithwick

Oddly enough abortion shooters that are very rare and condemned by nearly all Christians count against that entire religion.

Honor killings that are far more common and condemned by fewer Muslims are meaningless.

That wouldn't be a double standard would it?
Sarah

Not to mention beheadings in Buffalo.

http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

Who's talking just Manhattan, Islam and Christianity are worldwide, and only one kills homosexuals.

You'll have to provide proof of that little Uganda BS line and Westboro Baptist doesn't count.

mightysamurai

The irony about Gutfield's comments is that Islam is fully aligned with most Christian denominations in its anti-homosexuality.

Right, because Christians go around lynching and stoning homosexuals all the time.

Moron.

John__C

If you actually believe that someone is going to attempt to stone someone in downtown Manhattan, I think you've labeled the wrong person a “moron.”

Just saying.

freeman

Why did you wait until your example was shot full of holes in one post to bring up Manhattan? I mean, you didn't mention the city when you first compared Muslims and Christians. Its almost like you realized how stupid it your statement was and moved the goal post instead of admitting you were wrong. But that couldn't be.

Or are we just discussing Christians and Muslims in that one city instead of the world? Because I don't think even a city as large as Manhattan can really be used as an example of two world wide religions. I mean if we did that, we would have to compare all the cities one by one, like Tehran, were Muslims stone gays and Christians don't.

Oh, and just because they haven't stoned anyone yet in Manhattan, well… Past performance is no guarantee of future results.

John__C

Um, last time I checked, Gutfield was talking about the Cordoba House, not some random mosque in Baku.

But if you do want to talk about the incivility of religions in general, be my guest. I'll be the first person to condemn depraved customs by Muslims in various parts of the world. But like any religion, Islam differs greatly around the world, depending on the culture on which we're talking about. Saudi Muslims are very different from Iranian Muslims, who in turn are very different from Turkish Muslims, who are different from Indonesian Muslims, who obviously are different from U.S. Muslims (who themselves are split into different communities, including Black Muslims and the Arab community in Michigan).

In just the same way, I'm sure you wouldn't want to be linked with the idiot Christians blowing each other up in Northern Ireland, or slaughtering the Bosnian Muslims, etc.
freeman

In your list, two of the countries stone gays and one lets them off easy with only a 100 lashes. Only Turkey doesn't officially punish them. And they all have honor killings.

Unless you can find Christian Churches and Countries that support stoning gays, I don't see how you can say that Christians and Muslims are fully aligned in their anti-homosexuality attitudes.
John__C

I can't think of any Christian countries that stone gays, but I can think of some that execute them (Uganda), send virtual lynch mobs after them (Jamaica), beat the living crap out of them when they come out of the closet (Russia), send them to labor camps (Angola) for starters.

Although Islamic countries are especially bad in their treatment of gays, in sum much of the non-Western world is pretty abusive toward them. At best we're talking about a comparison between horrible and merely awful.
http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

I'm sorry but you'll have to prove those countries are Christian by law or majority population. I think you'll find that difficult to do.
John__C

Pull out your almanac if you don't believe me.
StanW

Or better yet, you post proof of the claims you made.
John__C

It's not hard to determine whether a given country is Christian or not. You know how to do the research.
StanW

I know you made the claim, John. It is up to you to provide proof.
http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

Not really if the Majority of it's citizens are Christians, you have a better than 50% chance. So get back to us on those 'Christian' nations.
http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

You made the assertion, you have to provide the proof, that's the way debate works, can't provide then your points are just so much BS. It's not my job to do your research.
freeman

So now its Christians and Muslims are in total agreement about their anti-homosexual attitudes as long as you don't count the Western World. The group that makes up half the Christians on the planet.
John__C

Attitudes and actions are two different things. As far as the legal and physical treatment of gays, the Western world is far superior to much of Africa, the Middle East and Asia. I don't hear of any stonings in the West, whether by Christians, Muslims or anybody else (although some on this board seem to differ on that).

Many here would like to attribute that to good ol' Christianity, but not long before the enlightenment we had inquistions, torture and burning of “witches” in the West. Many religions, especially the Catholic Church and the Mormons, were dragged kicking and screaming by secular humanism into the 20th century on issues from women's rights, racial equality and humane treatment of homosexuals – advances which Christian Churches now like to take credit for.

As far as attitudes go, there are plenty of people right here in the U.S. who say the most vile and loathsome things about gays and are applauded for it. If they had their way, there would be stoning in this country. The Christian Dominionists make no attempt to hide their views that homosexuals should be executed in a “truly” biblical U.S.
freeman

Secular humanism in form of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union killed homosexuals, too. But I suppose they won't count either.

Attitudes form actions. If the Christians were actually in lockstep with Muslims on their anti-homosexual beliefs like you claim there would still be stonings in the west.

Before we start, can you tell me why you are comparing the churches record from centuries ago with Muslims today? Why not compare today to today? Or both Islam and Christianity as they were centuries ago?

If the Christian Dominists in the west make no attempt to hide their view that homosexuals should be executed in the United States, it should be easy to post a few links. Bishops would be good, a Cardinal or two would be fantastic.
Kingfisher

Before we start, can you tell me why you are comparing the churches record from centuries ago with Muslims today?

OK, I will. Slavery exists in the Sudan, a country dominated by Muslims.

Name one Christian country that permits slavery.
http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

That you think Muslims are different because they live in the US you're more ignorant than you sound.John Wayne Malvo ring any bells.

UFKA_Smithwick

You said Christians and Muslims, not “New York” Christians and Muslims.

And if you look at the entire population of both which do you suppose is currently more likely to stone someone to death for being gay, or adulterous, or a disobedient woman, etc.

KoS

As a conservative who believes in the free market and property rights… I can't say that I want the government to do something about the mosque. The Imam has every right to build it.

the_hawk

It's not a free market or property rights issue.

John__C

Just asserting it's not a free market or property rights issue doesn't make it so.

mightysamurai

You're right. The fact that it's actually not a free market or property rights issue is what makes it not a free market or property rights issue.

John__C

The Cordoba House is a private institution, and they own the property they intend to build on. Under the Constitution, there can be no law preventing the construction of the Cordoba House unless the law is completely neutral as to the content of the particular religion's beliefs. So if the Cordoba House can't be built near Ground Zero, neither can any other religious institution.

To the extent that people are attempting to deny the right of the Cordoba House to be built, yes, it is a free market/property rights issue.
freeman

<quote>To the extent that people are attempting to deny the right of the Cordoba House to be built, yes, it is a free market/property rights issue.</quote>

It would only be a free market/property rights issue if the government banned the mosque. It isn't, the government fast tracked the project. Instead it's the people protesting, and there is also nothing in the constitution that says people can't protest it.

Heck, I think the simplest way to stop the mosque from being built would be to say that there was going to be a Walmart on the first floor. I know liberals will move heaven and earth to keep a Walmart from being built.
John__C

I'm not talking about people's right to protest. They certainly do have that right, although the intentions behind their protests run counter to the basic notion of pluralism embodied by the First Amendment's free expression clause.

As for “the people,” residents of Manhattan, who live closest to the proposed location of the Cordoba House, and overwhelmingly in favor of it. But Alaskans are just dead set against it!!
freeman

The first amendment just limits Congress. As long as the government doesn't actually outlaw the mosque it is impossible for the people to violate the idea of free speech by practicing free speech.

I had no idea there was a geographic limit to outrage. I'm curious, how far away from something can someone be and still be outraged? A mile, two?

Can I no longer protest logging the the rain forest or whaling because I don't live next door to either?
John__C

The FIRST Amendment just limits Congress. But even if you don't buy the “due process” theory of incorporation under the Fourteenth Amendment, even Justice Thomas concedes that the “privileges and immunities clause” of the Fourteenth Amendment expressly makes all First Amendment restrictions applicable to the states.

People are free to be outraged anywhere they want. But let's face it, if New Yorkers were outraged over a local issue in Oklahoma, would you expect Oklahomans to care?
freeman

The first amendment is applicable to every level of government. But the people still can not violate the idea of free speech by practicing it.

Would I expect Oklahomans to care? No more than I expect the Japanese to care about Americans complaining about whaling, or the Brazilians to care about Americans complaining about rain forest deforestation.

Or complaining about Walmarts going up anywhere. Even if it is just supposed to be between them and the zoning board.

And yet people still protest.

UFKA_Smithwick

I agree, the government should definitely stay out of it.

Individuals however have every right to protest this in any legal manner they see fit.

And as I have no doubt this was done intentionally to provoke non-Muslims I would say those protesting are in the right to do so.

Chris_B

I'd propose a butcher's shop next door selling nothing, but pork products.

John__C

While we're having fun with such incivility, why not pass out Mappelthorpe's “Christ In Piss” in front of every Christian church on Sunday morning while wearing Happy Holidays buttons?

mightysamurai

Sounds good to me. It'll be a great object lesson in Christian compassion versus Muslim aggression.

John__C

By “Muslim aggression,” I take it to mean you think that by selling pork products near a mosque somehow we'll end up with suicide bombings or something. Never mind that there are already hundreds of mosques in New York, which has more than enough pork products, homosexuals, uncovered women and alcohol to go around. I don't know about you, but I just can't seem to find any evidence of this “Muslim aggression” of which you speak.

Maybe you can point out all those incidents of violence around New York I must have missed.

the_hawk

9/11 comes to mind, and that's enough for most.
John__C

If you think 9/11 was about pork rinds, good for you.
the_hawk

You got me there, that's exactly what I thought it was about. Brilliant analysis. But you're purposely playing ignorant in order to appear clever.

In the response from the Park51 folks to Greg, they specifically mentioned how the gay bar idea ignored the sensibilities of Muslims. Isn't that the exact argument those who are opposed to the Ground Zero mosque are making?
John__C

Yes, it is. And I don't care if Muslim sensitivities are upset. This is a free country, and if someone wants to open a sex club next to a mosque, that's nobody's business but theirs and the zoning commission. But the mosque also has the right to be there. End of story.
the_hawk

Nobody is saying they don't have the right to be there. But that debate has been brewing here for over a week now, and you say end of story. So I guess it's over now.
Mr. EMT

I say they don't.

But I'm not in New York, that is New York's job to grow a spine and defend themselves.
Fat chance of that happening.
Right now I see them lining up to bend over the barrel and take it up the rear with a smile.
Mr. EMT

Allowing a declared enemy in a time of war to “raise their flag of victory” on our own ground, and fighting for their “right” to do so is Treason.
Eat it own it love it commie.
Mr. EMT

Nope, three thousand people died that day because islam is such a peaceful and understanding religion and its leaders are only trying to… what was it that the imam for the ground zero mosque said making a gay bar wouldnt do?
Something to the affect that they were only trying to have a dialogue with us.
Mr. EMT

Maybe you can point out all those incidents of violence around New York I must have missed.

WTC bombed, twice, times square failed bombing.
Are we seriously going to only look at the violence in NY, or can we not look at the other 16,000 acts of terror in the name of allah made around the world since 911 alone?
The hundreds of thousands who have died in the name of islam?
The women raped and murdered, the family member honor killings.
Here is a better idea, exactly why should this toxic religion be tolerated by any portion of the civilized world?
Liberals are so damned quick to judge christians and claim anyone who believes in God is mentally crippled, but you sick twisted morons sit there and defend islam's right to destroy lives.
Mediumheadboy

Wow, your head must be tightly wedged inside your large intestine.

Mr. EMT

I love that whole argument about being a passive victim after you did something to instigate the fight you got yourself into.

Your entire argument ignores the fact that the results of building a mosque on the ground where three thousand people lost their lives is totally incendiary to our enemies.
You do nothing but fuel their moral by giving them such a victory while advocating such an ourtight desecration.
If you are aware of this already, as you no doubt are, john, you are a traitor.
Period.
You are aiding our enemies in a time of war.
And while I am on record here on this board as saying New York, and liberals in general deserve this. I do not advocate it, I do not support it.
Our constitution, bill of rights and deceleration of independence has NO grounds for you to stand on for any such action.
The very fact that this action is creating such a division across the entire nation itself demonstrates it is not an act of “peaceful muslims.”

Again to reiterate the bottom line.
Al Qaeda and other “extreme” muslims will consider this a victory, and rightly so. Anyone who follows osama bin laden, the muslims who cheered while Americans were tortured, burned and mutilated, will look at this mosque as a total and absolute victory for their cause.
UFKA_Smithwick

Funny story: there are roughly as many Christians in the world as Muslims right?

When an unsubstantiated report came out about US troops abusing a Koran Muslims worldwide rioted and killed one another, threatening jihad and issuing various death threats. This lasted for weeks.

When the federal government funded the piss-Christ “art” Christians worldwide . . . . either ignored it or were annoyed. The most extreme ones may have written a letter.

So who needs lectures on civility?
Kathy

Andre Serrano, not Maplethorpe.

Miggie

I wonder whether they will get any construction workers or construction unions to do the job. I wonder how the firefighters and police feel about the place and how vigilant they are going to be.
It just galls me that they presume to teach us anything about religious tolerance. It is enough that they have their own take on “liberty and justice for all.” They don't include women or gays in their kind of justice.
http://genuinegopmom.blogspot.com Lisa Graas

Excellent anaysis, John.

Also, plugging my article on this. Why Catholics Should Oppose the Building of a Mosque at Ground Zero.

http://www.newsrealblog.com/2010/08/11/why-cath…
ObamaYoMoma

The people fighting this mosque are really missing the boat big time. Instead of citing the insensitivity of building a supremacist mosque so near to Ground Zero to commemorate Islam’s destruction of the WTCs, they should be pointing out that in addition to being a religion, Islam is also a very radical form of totalitarianism that seeks world domination, and as such it isn’t protected under the first amendment of the constitution or any other amendment for that matter. Hence, not only should the Ground Zero supremacist mega mosque be blocked from being built but all mosques building in the USA should also be blocked as well.

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