Your fear-mongering and bigotry is noted.

Now deal with it.

Your obtuseness is also noted.

Your head in the sand denial is duly noted.

Now deal with that.

Islam means to conquer, it is their goal, and they are called to use every means availible.

I gotta admit, I just don't care about this one. Build it. Don't build it. I don't plan on going to New York, and I don't care what they do there. The fact that it will probably be built only serves to confirm my suspicion that New Yorkers are much more foreign to me socially and culturally than the illegal immigrants who live in my area.

They couldn't get away with that shit here in Oklahoma, and that's good enough for me.

Just what exactly do you think is the definition of bigotry and fear-mongering?

Well, obviously to you, “bigotry and fear-mongering” equals telling the entire truth about the Cordoba Mosque. Sad that you are incapable of handeling the truth.

Vega just believes it's his lot in life to keep all the little brown people from being oppressed by the evil white man.

I'd obviously prefer that they didn't build this mosque there, and I'd never complain if the project got drowned in some byzantine NYC beaurocracy.

However, unless we're willing to publically label and treat Islam as the retrograde religion that it is, and somehow strip it of all the first amendment protections afforded other religions, there was no other legitimate outcome possible.

That's where we'd have to go in order to treat this as anything other than a 'routine' project. Are you sure we need to go there? I'm not

D, this isn't about bigotry. It's about respect and sensitivity. They claim this mosque is going to be a center for tolerance and respect, but when the vast majority of people you're reaching out to oppose the gesture, you might rethink your “outreach”. If this were any other religion except the very one that spawned the attackers, it would be more logical to see it as intolerance and bigotry. I fly for one of the airlines that the hijackers used for the attacks, so I'm particularly sensitive to the idea of a mosque being built on the ground that became the final resting place of some of my peers and compatriots.

And it's interesting that you would call us bigots when the cornerstone of Islam is violent intolerance of anyone outside of their ideology. Wasn't that the very basis of their rationale for the attacks to begin with? Or, I suppose they mean it in a good way when they call us infidels?

Hate to do this to you, but trolling flagged.

TR

In 99% of the cases, the definition is name calling by the left.

By the by, you're not following the playbook correctly. You forgot to throw in “racist” and “homophobe” for good measure.

TR

Trench, I think even Vega has a few brain cells left and could not stand the irony of calling an opposition to Islam homophobia.

But from his blatent lies and his abject cowardise the last few weeks, I would not put it past him.

Your kneejerk white guilt is noted.

Now deal with it.

Heh.
Actually I was being sarcastic in pointing out Vega resorting to baseless name calling rather actually addressing the topic. Forgot to include my tags, methinks.

But what is undeniable is here we have yet another example of Vega trolling a van Helsing thread.

TR

Don't be a tool, D-Vega.

If the Japanese wanted to open a Shinto shrine two blocks from the USS Arizona in 1951, you'd be OK with that? How 'bout a German culture center adjacent to the Wailing Wall, perhaps playing Deutchland Uber Alles every few hours so it could be heard at the wall?

Building this thing so close to Ground Zero, where 3,000 innocents were brutally murdered in the most horrific way in the name of Islam, is grossly insensitive. You liberals always whine about the need to be “sensitive.” Well how freaking “sensitive” do you consider deliberately building a “culture center” that houses a freaking mosque of all things right next to Ground Zero?

BTW, that wonderful person you call the Imam building this thing has been linked to terrorist organizations, and it goes without saying it will be yet another place that liberals can whine about being kept under FBI surveillance henceforth. It amounts to a damnable Victory Arch built on the graves of thousands.

The REAL irony here is this: if if were Christians that wanted to build a church at that exact spot, and 9/11 families and others objected to the church as being divisive because it might send “the wrong message to Muslims,” D-Vega and whats_up would have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER keeping the church from being built.

Tell me that ain't so, D-Vega.

It ain't so, Czech.

Actually, that is pretty close to actual events, CC.

St. Nicholas Church is closer to Ground Zero and was destroyed in the attack. Over $500,000 has been raised to rebuild, but they have been stymied by the City of New York for years. But a Mosque gets pencil-whipped through the process and has to be built NOW.

Makes one think!

It's not right next to Ground Zero, Czech. It is about the same distance the other mosque is, which is why this one is being built where it is. The muslim community in the area has been there for decades. There is no moral or logical reason to oppose it.

The only thing I feel guilty of is being associated with the Americans who talk a lot about freedom and equality, and then act with prejudice when it comes to their own fears and feelings of revenge and mistrust.

Thank you.

The post speaks for itself. Conflate these muslims with those from 9/11, in order to establish the fear factor and fabricate “reasons” to oppose it, which only amounts to bigotry.

Thank goodness the good people of New York know the difference.

“There is no moral or logical reason to oppose it.“

And yet many New Yorkers do, Vega. They are your neighbors, people directly affected by 9/11. When Bush was in office, they had “absolute moral authority”, so long as they were slamming Bush or Conservatives. Now that they don;t agree with your pathetic opinion, you call them names.

Could you be any more two-faced?

Noting blatant fear-mongering and bigotry is not trolling, TR.

Yeah, because they are only Americans when they agree with you.

Intolerant bastard!

Except for the “good people of New York” that oppose this Mosque, Vega.

And the Iman of this mosque thinks America deserved 9/11. Funny how you keep leaving that out, Vega.

D, this isn't about bigotry.

Of course it is.

It's about respect and sensitivity. They claim this mosque is going to be a center for tolerance and respect, but when the vast majority of people you're reaching out to oppose the gesture, you might rethink your “outreach”.

The majority do not, first of all. But even if they did, that means that outreach is needed.

If this were any other religion except the very one that spawned the attackers, it would be more logical to see it as intolerance and bigotry. I fly for one of the airlines that the hijackers used for the attacks, so I'm particularly sensitive to the idea of a mosque being built on the ground that became the final resting place of some of my peers and compatriots.

It's not being built on the final resting place of anyone.

And it's interesting that you would call us bigots when the cornerstone of Islam is violent intolerance of anyone outside of their ideology. Wasn't that the very basis of their rationale for the attacks to begin with? Or, I suppose they mean it in a good way when they call us infidels?

So then it's proper to respond in kind? Try to out-hate the haters? That's not the way this country works. And it's highly unlikely you could out-hate the crazy muslims, AND these muslims opening this center are not the crazy muslims, so you end up alienating the very people we need.

This country is about freedom of religion and freedom from those who would oppress religion. You guys are the first ones to see conspiracy when it comes to Christianity being oppressed in this country (which is absurd) but when it comes to muslims, you find ways to justify prejudice.

“The majority do not, first of all. But even if they did, that means that outreach is needed.“

TRANSLATION: “The majority are against me, but I don't care. Majority rule only applies when the majority agrees with me. If the majority is against me, then I'll lie and call them names and marginalize them.”

St. Nicholas Church is actually part of the WTC footprint and that's why it hasn't been built yet, along with everything else there.

There was no “pencil-whipping”. You are pathetic in your attempts.

The post speaks for itself.

That's exactly the sort of things trolls (martha for example) say when they get confronted for dropping one line insults instead of actually attempting to discuss or refute the post they are commenting on. It's telling that you have adopted that tactic.

I would not blame van Helsing one bit at this point if he just started deleting any posts by you to his threads regardless of content.

TR

They are free to have their feelings. They are still wrong.

And no one said they have “absolute moral authority” in anything. Stop deflecting and admit you want limits on religious freedom.

No, they are still Americans. Just bigoted and hypocritical Americans.

Nine years and they can't get that church built, but a Mosque gets fast-tracked? Of Course you support that, Vega. Just liek you turn your back on the New Yorkers that oppose this Mosque, because they have the temerity to disagree with you.

Wow.
You told me much more than I bet you thought possible in just two words of text, Vega.
I really do feel bad for what you have become.

TR

BULLSHIT, you and your side told use repeatedly the the Jersey Girls had absolute moral authority because their husbands died in the WTC. and there were only four of them. There are a LOT more New Yorkers that oppose this Mosque that lost people in the attacks.

Keep it up, Vega. Maybe the crocodile really will eat you last.

He never said America deserved 9/11. Stop lying. He specifically said “I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.”

Which is true.

You are not even making sense anymore.

And if that existed, then I might agree with you.

But instead you have engaged in that time honored, dishonest leftist tactic of name calling and using meaningless emotion-laden buzzwords.

Trotsky would be proud.

TR

So you also believe that we deserved 9/11. I always new it, I just never thought you'd be enough of a treasonous bastard to admit it.

The reply of a coward.

Sadly, that applies to you of late much more than it does Stan my friend.

TR

Actually, if this “It's just a community center (with a mosque included but let's pretend we don't notice!)” were REALLY a gesture from peace-loving, Western-acculturated Muslims of goodwill to foster “respect” and “fellowship” and “tolerance” between communities, they would already have offered to move the thing to a different site.

The fact that DESPITE our protests of outrage, these Islamic apologists (who elsewhere demand total capitulation in the name of tolerance and religious freedom when THEIR delicate “sensibilities” are even slightly affronted) grimly assure us they intend to proceed with this 5-story monument to The Peace of Islam (more properly understood as The Peace of Submit or Die) SO CLOSE TO THE SITE OF THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TWIN TOWERS AND THE SLAUGHTER OF 3000 INNOCENTS, ostensibly to prove how much they believe in peace, tranquility and brotherhood. (Without the Orwellian double-speak: TO MAKE VISIBLE AND CONCRETE MOHAMMED'S BOAST: “I AM MADE VICTORIOUS BY TERROR”. Additionally, this building is a neon advertisement to other jihadists that America is ready to fall to the Sword of Islam.)

But our Lefty Liberals are so open-minded that their brains all fell out, so of course they support this abomination. Gah!!

Nope. Try again.

Keep up that prejudice, Stan.

Don;t need to. The fact that you can't refute it is plenty.

Ooooo, he called me PREJUDICE. For those of you playing the home game, Vega will next call me a racist, run away, then post after midnight how he kicked my butt!

TR, conflating these muslims with the 9/11 attackers and using that to encourage opposition to this building is fear-mongering (i.e. fear the muslims, they are making fools of us) and bigotry (they are all the same, these guys are the same who attacked us).

Def.
Fear mongering (or scaremongering) – is the use of fear to influence the opinions and actions of others towards some specific end.

Religious bigotry – is prejudice or discrimination against one or all members of a particular religious group based on negative perceptions of their religious beliefs and practices or on negative group stereotypes.

You can't ask for more proof than that. Gimme a break.

And I called no one a name until I was called one. So there (rasberry).

I have constantly attempted and succeeded at refuting this nonsense. Again and again. Look it up yourself.

I couldn't care less about my posts being deleted.

That's not saying we deserved it, Stan. You are quite hysterical today. Stop your lying.

You are the one who flagged me for simply stating the truth, TR.

My “thank you” is a polite way of saying “that's on you, dude”.

Read my English, Stan:

St Nick's is AT Ground Zero. Park 51 is not.

Oh, such a short memory you have Vega. Don't you remember telling us that by expecting another attack after 9/11, that was the same as hoping for another attack so we could blame Obama for it?

If you don't remember, I have the thread saved to prove ONCE AGAIN that you are a liar.

Stan is not making sense here. I didn't say majority rules apply only when they agree with me.

Even if the majority of New York or America wanted to oppose a house of worship, it's wrong. Not because I say so, but because the Constitution says so. Why does it say so? Because it was one of the reasons this country was founded.

It's as simple as that. Stan wants to continue his hysterical tirade, that's fine. It doesn't change the facts.

The name of the project is Cordoba House Mosque, Vega. Instead of lecturing people about telling the truth, whey not try it yourself.

St. Nicholas is across the street from Ground Zero. Attempts have been made to rebuild for YEARS, but it is stuck in buerocrat red tape. But a Mosque??? Sure, why not.

PATHETIC, Vega!

It's stuck in red tape because, unlike Park 51, St. Nick's rebuilding is part of the Ground Zero rebuilding.

I would agree it's all taking too long.

The facts are it is you that is wrong, Vega, as the many peace-loving people of New York can attest. And as I said to JHarp, it is always curious that you site the 1st Amendment when there is a dispute with a Muslim; buit site “the separation of church and state” when it involves a Christian. Again, trying to have it both ways, Vega.

How I am supposed to refute something you made up? It's YOU who should prove what you asserted, sparky.

No, no racist accusations. This is not an immigration thread.

You are simply prejudiced against muslims.

No, I remember that. And I was right.

No, it isn't, Vega. The land and the money are there, but the Port Authority is holding it up. It has NOTHING to do with Ground Zero, and everythign to do with the slow-moving buerocracy of New York, a buerocracy that has been set aside in order to fast-track this mosque!

No, you were an idiot, Vega. It was wrong when you said it, and it because a lie when you defended it. And it is STILL a lie!

Those aren't the “crazy” muslims? You mean like the guy who is the founder of the mosque project:

“Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the founder of Cordoba Initiative and ASMA, would not disclose the source of the funds. He's also been criticized for telling CBS' “60 Minutes” last year that “United States policies were an accessory” to the 9/11 attacks.”

Nope, not the “muslims” we're looking for.

Close enough to racist. Not wanting a monument to Muslim conquest build near the site of the conquest doen NOT equal prejudice. And no matter how often you say it, it will always be a lie!

I think that this will get built because New Yorkers are more wracked with white leftist guilt and the idiot ideology of the evil oppressor minority and the virtuous oppressed minority. I also think it says an awful lot about the Muslim community in America that they'd even consider this project.

The only reason you support this, I suspect, is a reflexive need to side with someone other than the United States and white people whenever a possible conflict arises out of a need to appear the “good guy” and “for the minority.” That this came not from reasoned consideration but a gut instinct to side against American culture and for anyone who is different.

The fact that they named this initiative Cordoba House Mosque is all you need to know about what this Mosque means to Muslims in thsi country and the world over.

D-Vega, what on Earth is your emotional attachment to supporting a 15 story skyscraper mosque overlooking Ground Zero? That Imam is on record as refusing to condemn Hamas as a terrorist group. His stated agenda is to impose Sharia law on the USA – do you want little Arab-American girls to be forced to wear burkas, or be stoned to death for adultery perhaps?

These particular people are NOT “Muslim Americans.” There is NOTHING remotely American about them. Certainly not in their expressed values.

Furthermore, the very idea of building a mosque on this site is a calculated insulted. They want to call the thing “Cordoba mosque.” You DO know that Cordoba was built by conquering muslims in Spain after they conquered the Christians and sold them into slavery, right? The Visigothic peoples of Spain were completely wiped out by the Muslims that built Cordoba, and Muslims typically built mosques over the ruins of conquered churches. The name alone is ghastly, and telling.

Again, you're wasting your political correctness defending people that want to send you and yours into the 6th century. Let it go D-Vega.

And you're pathetic in your moral posturing on behalf of the indefensible.

It is actually more simple than that, CT.

Vega reflexively sides with anyone and anything that is opposite to what Conservatives think. It occasionally puts him against America and everything we stand for, but Vega is a Liberal first and foremost. Conservatives are to him the most dangerous group on the planet and his opposition to us is so consuming to him that he will oppose his own country and actively cheer it's destruction so long as he is on the opposite side of an issue that any Conservative is.

The words Pathetic Traitor are not strong enough to express how loathesome Vega has become!

Muslims have always been very sensitive to the use of symbols and the meaning behind symbolic gestures. Visit Jerusalem and witness the Dome of the Rock, which was built atop in part because it's a holy site for them, but also in part because that was the holiest locale in Judaism. That sensitivity to symbolism is seen much more recently in the destruction of the Buddahs of Bamyam by the Taleban. Heck, even the targets selected for attack on 9/11 were of hugely symbolic value – the WTC a symbol of Western materialism and material colonialism, the Pentagon a symbol of American military might, and the White House the symbolic home of the American Republic.

Given the history of the use of symbols and symbolic gestures in Islam over a period of centuries, there's no way that the construction of a mosque in the vicinity of the WTC site is not being done at least in part for it's symbolic value.

Islam is not the only religion steeped in symbolism – I'm not going down that path. I'm only stating that those who perceive this as a symbolic affront, are responding to an ongoing war of symbols with a history which extends back centuries. And they're not wrong in their perceptions.

You'd think that if their real purpose was to promote unity, religious tolerance, and to extend dialog… then the strength of opposition and anger this is generating would prompt them to move the location to another place, not so close to ground zero. If that was their purpose.

I had the same thought about building it somewhere else. Wish I'd read this first before posting it.

Nixon sees no one has mentioned that Islam is a false, pagan religion. A 7th century death cult if you will.

I think it is the same as building a Shinto temple at Pearl Harbor in 1951 it just doesn't make any sense. Why put salt in the wound? I don't know what New Yorkers are trying to proove but it's too early for this. Wait. Build something else…I'm sick of Muslims and I'm sick of politically correct imbeciles but like you said do whatever hell they want. TG I don't live in NYC.

There's probably some of that as well, or at least that contributes strongly to him holding the position when he might otherwise reconsider.

The truth is you choose to side with the muslims that attacked us. You do, after all, support their victory mosque at the site of their great attack against the big satan. Your doing this in a very similar way to the white guilt liberal vote for obama. I think its fear. Either way your a complete knob and really should FOAD for being such a pussy.

Sorry I didn't read your post before I posted mine, you said the same thing only better…I'm in total agreement…and I'm a liberal…go figure

Didn't we go around this Pagan death cult whirlygig already?

Oh, I forgot – you're a complete tard.

You're willfully ignoring the fact that mosques around the nation must be kept under FBI watch because they are known centers of terrrist recruitment, D-Vega.

The original WTC attack was organized and executed out of a New York mosque. This particular Imam is known to sympathize with terrorist organizations, like Hamas. He's also a complete radical, advocating that Sharia be imposed upon American citizens unlucky enough to be born to fundamentalist Muslim parents. That means female American citizens would be required to wear veils or burkas, could be whipped, amputated, or stoned to death. There is nothing “multicultural” about this proposed barbarism, and you, D-Vega, as an alleged “liberal” should be the most outspoken critic of it… or you would be, if it wasn't for your reflexive anti-Americanism and anti-Westernism.

Then there is the issue of the funding for this thing: it's not just a mosque, it's a 15 story skyscraper! (By the way, architectural renderings of it feature the word “mosque” near the top of the building, to be clearly visible from Ground Zero)

Where is the money coming from? The Imam coyly refuses to explain how a small muslim community can afford their own skyscraper. Mayor Bloomberg and other oh-so-PC politicians refuse to investigate (even though if someone with limited income was applying for a liquor license, he'd be put thru the wringer to explain the source of his license fee) where the millions of dollars for this monument to terrorism is coming from.

Well let me take an educated guess we all know to be true, and prove me wrong: it's being funded by the same Wahabi Saudi billionares that fund Al Quaida. And the goal is to create a victory monument to memorialize the perpetrators of 9/11, not the victims. And, not coincidentally, to create a new natural center for recruiting new terrorists, in a place where Terror carried out its most awful assault upon humanity and civilization.

One last point: WHY must this thing be built near Ground Zero? With the funding apparantly available to it, it could have been built in the Bronx or Brooklyn, even mid-town Manhattan, without comment by anyone. NO, this thing is being built right at Ground Zero as an in-your-face gesture against all of us, a grossly insensitive act carried out againt the families of the victims and against ALL Americans that don't share a pro-Sharia and pro-Terror agenda. NO ONE can claim this building is somehow “reaching out” or “reconciling” ANYONE, because all it is doing is fanning the flames of outrage – and uite rightly so. This is akin to building a German cultural center next to Wailing Wall – need we explain why? ONLY a liberal would insist on having the sheer insensitivity and grotesqueness spelled out for them.

A recent Pew poll revealed that something like 85 percent of all Pakistanis support stoning women for adultery, D-Vega.

Pardon me if I don't feel anyone that feels that way should be allowed to immigrate to our shores.

What about the symbolism of our actions? Or more simply the direct interpretation of religious intolerant attitudes? What about freedom of assembly? of religion? What about our history? Was the Treaty of Marrakesh just a ruse? Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, and Washington weren't reaching out to the Muslim world? Bush II was wrong when he declared Islam was a peaceful religion? The voices on the right didn't lash out then – why not? Was it way less politically expedient then as opposed to now? Did you notice – we now have a Democrat president who has dark skin and studied at a madrasah? He's not one of us.

C'mon Martin – you're better than this. Just because some crappy people have done some crappy things doesn't mean we Americans should compromise our values – our exceptionalism. The voices on the right have sounded off on the importance of American values and exceptionalism…. do they still matter?

Then why post in the first place trollboy? You display a common trait with your islamic brethren… intractable fanaticism.

Did you see anything in what I wrote which either denied the symbolism of our past action? Or which laid out some sterling defence of it? Huh?

As far as I can see, you just used what I wrote to launch into a 'scatter gun' rant about whatever you wanted to talk about, which has precious little to do with the topic I was addressing – specifically the symbolism of placing a mosque near the site of what radical Muslims see as both a symbol of our evil and a victory for their goals. It's fine with me if you want to rant about all that crap, but please don't use me as your entry point into that nonsense.

I am indeed better than that.

Cheers.

The frustrating thing to me about all this is that the instant, knee-jerk, mindless reaction of the left is to declare anyone who opposes this as racist and anti-liberty. Why, there cannot be any possible reason for opposing this project than a hatred of religious freedom and racism against, uh, muslims… somehow that's racist.

If they'd rub a few brain cells together, I'm sure they could come up with other possible reasons for opposing this, but why make the effort? The old standby will serve, even if it doesn't make a damn bit of sense. Hint: Islam is not a race.

Cherry picking logic and values is is intellectually lazy – You are better than this.

You have to consider the message that would be sent by New York denying the construction of a Mosque. Bloomberg has it right – the denial would symbolize a victory for the terrorists.

I support the Victory Mosque and hope that it will have a mural depicting the many demands to which the US acceded after the towers came down.

Most important: the rapid retreat (before 2002) of the cowardly infidel troops from the house of Saud, protectors of most holy Mecca. Our colleagues in Vientiane were correct in diagnosing you as running dogs.

The replacement of the secular regime in Iraq with a far more religiously oriented regime was an unexpected side-benefit. It at once empowered our brothers in Iraq and strengthened the position of our brothers in Iran against the forces of tolerance and moderation.

Good going, Great Satan!

We hope you will relax and enjoy the fruits of the increased heroin production which your time in Afghanistan has facilitated.