A Conversation About Abortion
A Coversation About Abortion: I had a discussion with Dawn Olsen from Up Yours And More Helpful Tips about abortion. I thought you might find it interesting so I decided to post it…
John Hawkins: If you can convince me that life doesn’t begin at conception — then you have a good chance of changing my view on abortion.
Dawn: Conception is scientific – life is when an entity can support itself that is about 24 weeks after conception. That is a fact.
John Hawkins: A newborn baby can’t support itself.
Dawn: Sorry, but its body can function without the mother’s body. Nice try – got another?
John Hawkins: It has to be cared for constantly or it will die.
Dawn: So do plants – I kill them all the time.
John Hawkins: Try again on what? I just refuted what you said — ‘Life is when an entity can support itself’ — Babies can’t support themselves.’
Dawn: Their bodies can live outside the womb. Prior to that they are a host, a parasite.
John Hawkins: Even if the baby can’t live outside the womb — why does that mean they are not alive? All humans go through that exact same phase.
Dawn: So what if all human go through the same phase, it is biological. I love children but that doesn’t mean all pregnancies should be foisted on society. You have to look at the greater good – well loved and cared for children who are afforded every opportunity to grow and are nurtured help society – that is the strongest case for abortion I can think of.
John Hawkins: Could you not make the same case for letting Andrea Yates go then? Obviously those kids were not going to be ‘loved and cared’ for as they should have been?
Dawn: That is entirely different – and a pointless argument. You are opening yourself up for a major smackdown.
John Hawkins: “Well loved and cared for children who are afforded every opportunity to grow and are nurtured help society.” That would not apply to Andrea Yates’ or Susan Smith’s kids and you used that as a reason to have an abortion. So why wouldn’t it be a reason just to kill them?
Dawn: Those children were sentient beings long out side the womb, as soon as they were born they had rights and protection of the law to not be murdered. Biology was not a factor.
John Hawkins: Well I think inside or outside the womb is an arbitrary distinction — all children have to go through a phase inside the womb.
Dawn: No, no – I said abortion should be legal and an option for individuals who society would be better off not having had as parents. It is far less painful for a non-entity that knows nothing of love and nurture to be discarded and wait for his or her “soul” to be presented again at a later time, than to be mistreated and forced to adapt in a world that is ill-equipped to deal with their life of maltreatment.
John Hawkins: I can’t say that I agree with that argument because you could use that same argument for countless people who are alive today — prisoners — orphans — etc.
Dawn: Until men can bear children, they understand nothing of the complexities of the phases of pregnancy or the emotions of it.
John Hawkins: I understand that pregnancy is complex and emotional — but when there is a human life at stake I don’t think we can use that as an excuse to kill a child either — I’m sure Andrea Yates was complex and emotional when she killed her kids.
Dawn: John – your Andrea Yates analogy is completely erroneous and you are aware of it – you should know better than to have an emotional debate on matters of legality.
John Hawkins: I don’t think so — I don’t see a lot of difference between Andrea Yates and the average woman who aborts her kids — the kids would have been just as dead if she aborted them right?
Dawn: Our laws uphold the right to have an abortion – I feel that is the right thing to do up to the point where a fetus is viable outside the womb – anything beyond that – I am with you in spirit and belief. Andrea Yates does not have the right legally to hunt down her children methodically and murder them with her bare hands – everyone would agree that is legally wrong.
John Hawkins: Right — we’ve declared it legal for a mother to abort her baby — but illegal to kill the baby after it’s born — the end result is the same however — dead children.
Dawn: It is not a baby, use the right terminology.
John Hawkins: I would say it is, after conception — it is a baby IMO.
Dawn: Not according to medical experts. You are talking about emotions and religion not fact and law.
John Hawkins: There certainly is a legal difference between someone who has an abortion and Andrea Yates — absolutely. But I’m arguing that morally — there is no difference.