Interviews With 3 Professional Dating Gurus
Previously on RWN, I put together a couple of articles that featured interviews with conservative women on dating (Part 1, Part 2). The articles were a big hit and I had several people ask me when I was going to do a follow-up with conservative men.
Although I did want to do a follow-up, given that I have a mostly male audience, I didn’t think they’d be all that interested in hearing about the dating experiences of right-wing guys. So, in order to adequately cover the male perspective on dating in a way that would be interesting to both men and women, I decided to do some interviews with professional dating coaches.
These men are real life versions of the movie character “Hitch.” They get paid, considerable sums of money in some cases, to teach men how to deal with women. All three of the men I got together with for interviews are fairly well known in their field and had a lot of great advice to offer. What follows are the edited transcripts of the interviews. Enjoy!
Wayne was the subject of the UK’s Channel Four television documentary “Seduction School.” He is also the founder and CEO of Charisma Arts which has 15 instructors who run in-field bootcamps and teach men how to meet women. He has written for Esquire and Blender magazine as well as authored an Ebook, “How to Meet and Connect with Women.”
Wayne, what do you think the biggest mistake most men make with women is?
Probably coming across as needy. …They get way too ahead of themselves. They’re trying to get a girl into a relationship or into the bed when they need to be living in the moment …It’s a guy’s job to have fun and to show a girl a good time.
A lot of guys look at themselves like medicine. They act as if women should take them because they’ll be good for the girl. But, that doesn’t work in reality. The girl is more likely to want an addicting drug. …You should be like a drug, better than drugs in a sense. You should be someone who is fun to be with all the time.
If a guy tries to come across with a girl he just met as altruistic, saying “you are sexy” or “you’re fun to be with” or he’s trying to be nice to her, she doesn’t trust that because she believes everyone has a selfish motive. So, I tell guys if you want to come across as altruistic, no one is going to believe you.
Why does it seem like more women are interested in you when you’re already dating someone that when you’re single?
Women flirt with guys who are married, dating, or in a relationship because it feels safe. But, that doesn’t necessarily mean they want to break up the relationship…It simply means they feel safe flirting.
Years ago, I used to be a stilt walker. That was my job. I used to walk on stilts at company parties. If you can imagine a guy who is 10 feet tall and wearing sequins — I was the only straight man who could wear sequins and get away with it.
So, I would go to these events and all these women would always come on to me. They would flirt with me non-stop, saying the most outrageous over-the-top sexual innuendoes — about being tall and other things being long, but as soon as I got off of my stilts and went up and talked to them, no more flirting.
Because you weren’t safe anymore?
I wasn’t safe anymore. …A lot of times women like to flirt, everybody likes to flirt, but it’s in a safe environment where they know it has limitations. …If a girl flirts with a guy who’s married and he comes across as if he’s really going to hit her, you know, let’s go back to my place, a lot of women think that’s creepy — that’s going too far.
Do most of your clients tend to prefer casual relationships with multiple women or a serious relationship with one?
I think most guys say they want to play the field and are looking for multiple relationships, but in fact, they really would be very happy in a relationship. My feeling is that most people are happier in a relationship, whether they know it or not.
In your opinion, can you woo any woman if you work on them long enough or is there a point where you might as well say “forget it,” this isn’t going to work?
It’s a case by case basis, but most guys get things out of order and they send relationship signals too soon. They have a crush on a girl or they know a girl at work and they send relationship signals. If there’s going to be a relationship, there should be sexual tension. That doesn’t necessarily mean sex because I know a lot of people want to wait until marriage …but I think there should be sexual tension. I think there should be some physical chemistry.
A lot of guys who have crushes are afraid to take it there. They’re afraid to show their sexual interest. So, it gets murky. Basically, what happens with a woman and man is that windows open. We call them escalation windows. If you don’t step through those windows and take it to the next level, then that window tends to close. There are windows in time that a guy has to go through to advance the relationship and one of the first ones is to show that they’re sexual attracted to the girl so that the girl knows that is a possibility going forward. …Most guys don’t do that because they’re afraid to scare her away, but the problem is that if they wait too long, then that window can close and the girl may never see the guy in a sexual way anymore and then he gets into the friend zone and it’s very difficult to get out of there.
Related question: let’s say you get into the friend zone with a woman; is it possible to get out of that?
It’s possible…but I always tell guys you have got to be a new man. She has got to see new sides of you and…you have to show her your sexual interest…It’s difficult for a man to do that, to show himself as a new man and show a new side of himself.
But, if you want to try it, you should put on some different cologne you’ve never worn, put on some clothes you’ve never worn, get your hair cut a little differently, go to a new place with her, and talk about some things you’ve never talked about before, and tell her you find her sexy. That’s the best chance you possibly have at that point.
Now, there’s always an absolute rule that you have to be prepared to lose her as a friend. It’s one of those things where it’s like either friend or possible lover, right now. It’s either gonna be flirting and sexual or it’s going to be over. That’s how it is in my experience.
Tom Hodges, known to his loyal readers as Doc Love, is a relationship coach and a featured weekly columnist for AskMen. He’s also the author of “The System,” which was recently listed by MSN as one of the “Top Ten Dating Books for Various Occasions.”
Additionally, over 145 relationship sites carry his weekly love column and his talk radio show runs on Friday afternoons at 4PM Pacific and 7PM Eastern. You can listen to it by going to his website and clicking in the top right hand corner.
On the “attraction test”
How do we know what the girl’s interest level is? It would be nice if on her forehead it said 28 out of 100, you’d know not to talk to the girl. But, if it said 55 or 60, you’re on the plus side. Ideally, when you meet a girl, the interest level is at least 51%. You have to pass what I call the physical attraction test — your voice, your mannerisms. She reads you in about a minute and a half to two minutes. Now, I am not saying completely, your whole life, but I am saying what she does read is, “Do I feel attracted to this guy?”
Doc on the “name test”
It’s like you go to a wedding, let’s say. There’s Caprice. You go up and say, “Hi, what’s your name?” She says, “My name’s Caprice.” I shake her hand and I don’t say anything. Most guys would shake her hand and say, “My name’s ‘Doc.'” But, if you don’t tell her your name, she has to say, “So, what’s your name?” Half the women don’t ask for your name. So, what is their interest level?
Not very interested.
They’re not interested. But, what the guy does is he says, “My name is Doc.” Then he talks to her for two hours, he asks her for a phone number and she says, “I have a boyfriend.” But, he could have figured it out two hours ago and could have been hustling other bridesmaids at the wedding.
I was asking a buddy of mine for a question and she asked, “Why do nice guys finish last in dating?” Why is…
Because nice guys are weak guys. They wear their heart on their sleeve and they don’t make the girl work for it. …What happens is that the guy says, “I had a good time, did you? Can I see you again? You’re really a nice girl! You’re sure good looking.” This girl is 28, she’s good looking, and ever since she was 12, guys have been telling her she’s beautiful. So, what effect does that compliment have? It’s a negative.
…The nice guy is too happy to be there and when she walks away from the first date she says, “Here’s another one I own,” versus “I don’t know where I stand with this guy.” When you start tweaking that detective in her mind, she goes bonkers and her interest level goes through the roof.
…As soon as a disagreement comes up, the nice guy says, “Ok dear, whatever you say, I’m just happy to be here.” As she notices he has no backbone, I call it “Wimpus Americanus,” and what happens is that she doesn’t respect him. If she doesn’t respect a man, she falls out of love.
What misconceptions do most men have about women?
They try to treat them like guys or they talk down to them — and women are 10 years sharper than us. If you’re 25 and you go out with a 25 year old girl, she’s 35. The romantic field is her turf and 90% of men have no idea what they’re doing. 10% of the men, even though they haven’t met me, are pretty sharp around women.
But 90%, they haven’t a clue and so they go out and they try this and (that) and they do and say things — and you can do and say anything around your best buddies or Fido your dog, because they practice unconditional love, but women are into conditional love. They keep a scorecard. Well, he did this wrong. The waitress came over and he was staring at her legs. He’s out. He eats like he’s going to stab himself with a fork. He’s out. He had a pimple on his face and he was playing with it during the meal. He’s out.
She has to touch you on the arm or the leg, first date, a tap, just for one second. If she doesn’t touch you, she’s out. If you’re going to kiss her good night on the second date and she turns her head, she’s out. We’re going to teach guys how to get rid of women. If you see something wrong, we’re gone. …You say, “Susie, what’s your home phone number?” She says, “Well, why do you want it? I’m not ready for a relationship right now. Do you have a business card?” — or — “Oh, here’s my home phone number, here’s my cell phone number. Give me a call, I’d like to see you.” You know, one is alive and one is dead. Guys think, “Oh, I am going to be persistent.” Well, if it’s not there to begin with, you can’t build it up.
Savoy is the President and creator of Love Systems. Love Systems teaches the science of dating and social dynamics through educational seminars, as well as a broad range of materials that include books, CD’s, DVD’s, etc. Savoy is also the author of Magic Bullets and co-authored the “Love Systems Routines Manual,” a collection of the best tried-and-tested scripts used by pick-up artists in their in-field experiences with women.
Before creating Love Systems in 2006, Savoy co-founded Mystery Method Corp in 2004 with fellow pick-up artist “Mystery.” While serving as a consultant on the VH1 show “The Pickup Artist,” Savoy worked to bring dating science to mainstream America. Savoy also appears in Neil Strauss’ best-selling book “The Game,” and operates the world’s largest free pickup and dating forum for men – The Attraction Forum.
What do you think the biggest mistake most men make with women is?
I think most men try to be too nice. There is nothing wrong with being nice. The world would be a better place if people were nicer to each other, but there is a difference between being nice and trying to trade being nice for a woman’s affection. A lot of women just find that to be weak or manipulative when guys approach them or befriend them under the guise of, “Hey, let’s be friends and I can do this or that for you” and then they try to turn that into something romantic or sexual later.
Now, the flip side of that, I suppose would be: why do a lot of women fall for jerks?
One of the things we’ve done at Love Systems is break down the things that women are attracted to and there are 8 different attraction switches. Even if you don’t know anything about a woman, you can take a fairly good guess at what she’s going to want. Being a jerk actually isn’t one of (the attraction switches). Women aren’t interested in jerks per se, but women are interested in alpha males. Women are interested in men that are confident, that are a challenge, that can command social status, that have some amount of power. A lot of these characteristics get associated with being a jerk, but those are primarily associations made by frustrated, weak men.
If you’re a nice guy and you’re trying to suck up to this woman and do all of these favors for her and put her on a pedestal and some other guy just treats her like a normal person, that’s going to look like he’s being a jerk. But, he’s actually just confident in his own reality.
The universal advice women usually give to guys about dating is just “be yourself.” Is that good advice, bad advice — what do you think?
It comes from a good place, but it’s bad advice because what women mean by it and what men understand by it are two different things. Look, if being yourself worked, why would you be asking for advice in the first place? Being yourself is more or less what guys have been doing, which is why they are asking for advice.
I would say “Be your best self.” …When a woman says, “be yourself,” she’s saying, “Don’t put on this giant act. Don’t pretend to be something you’re not or have something you don’t.” But, it doesn’t mean you should shuffle up to some girl and say, “Hey, I’m really shy, but I’d really like to meet you because you’re so beautiful…” Not that side of yourself. We want the side of yourself that presents you in the best possible way in the most interesting, challenging, and confident and attractive way you can be.
What misconceptions do most men have about women?
I think a lot of men just don’t understand women very well and find it much easier to lump women into different stereotypes. It seems very difficult for a lot of men to think of women as something other than princesses or whores. So either she is on a pedestal and is perfect in every way and doesn’t even have bodily functions or she is a little tramp and a slut. A lot of men have difficulty dealing with the complexity of women…
Let’s reverse that question: what misconceptions do most women have about men?
We’re also unique among dating coaches in that we work with women. …It’s more interesting in some ways and more challenging in others. Look, let’s be honest here: men are more superficial than women when it comes to looks — and women are more superficial than men when it comes to social status.
…I can help women run relationships, I can help a woman get some guy who is already kind of interested in her, but if she says, “I don’t get approached that much,” unfortunately it’s either an issue where she needs to get out there where she can get approached or it’s hair, exercise, diet, and make-up — and I’m certainly not an expert on any of those.
…But, retreating back to your original question. It’s kind of the same thing in reverse. Men look at women through the angle of their own experiences, their own psychology. So men will expect women to be a little bit more logical and strategic, to be interested in the same sort of things they are and communicate in the same way.
…The specific implications of that is usually that if you are a woman and you are wondering what a guy meant by something he did or said, usually it’s the simplest explanation. Women tend to over-complicate men. Women, as a general rule, tend to assume what a guy is doing is related to her, his feelings about her, or his intentions to her more than it actually is. You know…I am going out with my buddies tonight because I want to see my buddies, not so that I can rub it in my girlfriend’s face that I can have a good time without her. It’s that kind of thing.
What are women looking for from a guy in general?
That gets back to the eight attraction switches. I can go through those if you want.
The first three are your attributes. These are things that you are.
Health is one of them. Not all women are looking for Olympic athletes, but women are not attracted to the guy who walks up blowing his nose and complaining about his open sores…
Number two is social intuition. Women like to be with men who can handle themselves in social situations…
Number three is humor….most women are looking for a man who can make them laugh sometimes.
There are two things you can have. These are status and wealth. You may look at this and say, “I’m not a movie star and I am not rich, so how can I have status and wealth?” Well, indicators of status and wealth are important. Status doesn’t mean you are on the front pages of the newspapers. Status can be relative in an environment. I mean if you walk into a nightclub and you bypass the line, shake hands with the bouncer, the owner comes out to say “hi” to you, and you’re ushered into your table in the VP section, that’s status in that environment. Women will pick up on that….It doesn’t have to mean anything though. The night manager at Denny’s has status compared to the waitresses that work there.
The three others are where it gets interesting because these are the outcomes and the process works in reverse. If somebody has these five things that we’ve covered, there are certain things that are also likely to be true about him. For example, other women should be interested in him, he should be a challenge…and finally, he should be confident.
Now, the way this works is that it works in reverse because women are used to guys peddling their stories or making a great first impression, but that may not exactly be who they are. That’s why…women are always trying to see if stuff fits because even if they don’t know this consciously, they know subconsciously that some guys are good and can confuse them. So, women tend to look for men who confident, challenging, and preselected (by other women) first.