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Liberals- Why Do You Side With Islam Over Christianity?
Written By : Sharon

0
  • Jane

    What a dumb question.

    It's not a matter of siding with one religion over another. An agnostic can condemn both religions on various grounds and praise both religions on various grounds.

    But one of the problems is inherent in this girls message. She's against Koran burning because it will insight our enemies. She implies that “our” side is not “America” but rather Christianity.

    American is not a “christian nation” in the way that Iraq is a muslim nation as she implies.

    In the end, the reason Americans support the Cordoba House Community Center is because liberals believe it is inconsistent with liberty to accuse all members of a community with possessing the sins demonstrated by the few members of that community.

    That's exactly what the opposition to the Cordoba House is about: “No muslim presence near Ground Zero!!”. This is a way of punishing and accusing all American muslims for the work of a few.

    • UFKA_Smithwick

      “is because liberals believe it is inconsistent with liberty to accuse all members of a community with possessing the sins demonstrated by the few members of that community.”

      Koran burning in the US carried out by perhaps 50 folks = all americans are ignorant racist bigots. Or at the very least all christians.

      Terrorism carried out by thousands of mulsims = nothing to see here.

    • northerncanuck

      Maybe a racist sign or word at a Tea Party means the Tea Party as a whole is racist.
      Conservatives as a whole are racist according to the left; this with no evidence but plenty of evidence of the left being racist.
      All Christians are homophobes? Another charge from the left.
      Man, the projection from Jane and their ilk is almost tangible.

      Jane; are you a single poster or a shift poster? Still waiting to hear who your paymaster is. Are you embarrassed?

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Danny-Browning/1666222445 Danny Browning

        Tea partiers are considered racist because racist signs appear at nearly every rally they hold.

        And “Conservatives” has a wide range of connotation. Fiscal conservative? Moral Conservative? Whites are the best Conservative? Only one of those I'd consider racist.

        It all comes down to drawing your own conclusions, or listening to the loudest of the talking heads. Not everyone left, center, or right leaning is the same. It is called a political spectrum for a reason.

        • Trench_Raider

          Tea partiers are considered racist because racist signs appear at nearly every rally they hold.

          It's not nice to lie.

          That statement is only true if your defintion of “racist” is something like “Racist=any White conservative that I happen to disagree with”. Other than that, your statement is an outright purposeful lie.

          Have I mentioned today that “racism” as a term was first coined by Leon Trotsky (yes, THAT Trotsky) in the early 30s and was used by him in much the way your ilk does: to silence opposing views by slandering and shaming them. You are being a good little Trotskyite.

          TR

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Danny-Browning/1666222445 Danny Browning

            Sorry, all the pictures of rallies must have been doctored to add in signs like “send all the wetback back” and “towelheads want a monument where we died” (paraphrasing signs seen).

            Signs like that are abnormalities at conservative rallies, but common occurrence at tea party rallies. That is why tea partiers are associated with racism. Just one of the reasons why a majority of conservatives don't support the tea party.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SVVAS5CSLHMOZBWWS2RMHXICFM Gatorman

            Post ONE just ONE picture of a sign like that at just ONE Tea Party.

          • Rose

            He can't. He left his brains in his other pants.

          • Trench_Raider

            Well, first off neither sign is by defintion “racist” as neither illegal aliens or middle easterners are distinct races. Both are tacky and nasty in nature. But neither is “racist” (whatever that means). See why “racist” has no meaning in today's political discourse? It's mis-use and over-use by your sort.

            Anyway…

            Have intolerant and unpleasant signs apeared? Sure. But first off there is no evidence that they have shown up anywere nearly often enough to be called “common”. Second on the rare occasion they have shown up they have indeed gotten alot of attention due to their unusual nature. It's a “man bites dog” sort of thing. People tend to comment on things that are out of the ordinary. Finally on the rare occasions when these sorts of things have shown up they have been denounced other tea party members.

            Shall I play the time honored leftist game of “but, but, but your side does it too!!11!!” and point out all the nasty natured signage you see at leftist rallies/protests/temper tantrums?

            Son, you are letting your ideoloy and prejudices allow you make statements that are completely untruthful.

            TR

          • Common Sense

            Oh, you must be speaking of the toolish signs your degenerate brethren in the “Crash the Tea Party” movement have been caught carrying while trying to “blend in.” Yeah, good job, guy.

            You're hilarious, though. Keep posting.

          • TheDickNixon

            FLagged for deliberate trolling. Either that or you are the dumbest poster ever in RWN history.

        • mightysamurai

          Tea partiers are considered racist because racist signs appear at nearly every rally they hold.

          Got any proof of that, by any chance?

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Danny-Browning/1666222445 Danny Browning

            Easy way is google “tea party racist signs”.

            Or this if you're lazy: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/4/21/859405/-What-does-take-back-our-country-REALLY-mean

            http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mupm2BmIjtc/S8NxCZXumXI/AAAAAAAALfw/M5sg8SL2hA4/s1600/tea+party+racist+signs.jpg

            Can attribute them to mischief makers in the party, but as I've said, the other parties don't tolerate it.

          • mightysamurai

            I asked for proof. This is not it.

            Prove that these alleged signs were held by actual Tea Party members. Prove that they were not created in photoshop or brought by left-wingers attempting to discredit the movement.

          • TheDickNixon

            Ko$ is your source? Thanks for playing.

          • blkdragon

            Daily Kos??? Really??

            Go Away.

          • Rose

            Anyone can photoshop.

            You don't have credibility from the live shots that show the Conservative guest speakers.

            Except for fakers quickly tagged and marked, whose identities quickly unite them to a Liberal's political campaigns.

          • http://www.wordaroundthenet.com Christopher Taylor

            Nobody tolerates idiots in their midst… except “anti war” rallies, they exult at having morons in their midst

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SVVAS5CSLHMOZBWWS2RMHXICFM Gatorman

          I have been to many Tea Parties and I have yet to see ONE racist sign. In fact, I saw whites, blacks, asians and other races at them. The only ones that are racist are the liberals. Oblah-blah, Jackson and Sharpton can't make a statement without showing their racist tendencies.

        • TheDickNixon

          “Tea partiers are considered racist because racist signs appear at nearly every rally they hold.”

          Held by liberals.

        • Rose

          Given that “NO NEW TAXES” is clearly a RACIST STATEMENT!

          What a maroon!

          Danny musta left his brains in his other pants.

    • Common Sense

      What a dumb response, Jane.

      #1 – Islam isn't a religion, it's a political ideology bent on world domination and the overthrow of all independent and sovereign world governments so that Sharia will become the law of the land. Hope you've got a nice burka picked out that accentuates your eyes cause that's the only thing that's going to be visible to anyone when your muslim pals get their way.

      #2 – “Insight” is spelled “incite.”

      #3 – America has historically and traditionally been, and still is, a Christian nation. Our government was founded upon Judeo-Christian principles. To ignore this fact is keeping your head in the revisionist sand where the minds (or lack thereof) of all liberals are currently located. Maybe crack open some history books and learn something about our founding before quoting our ignorant president by saying that we are not a Christian nation.

      #4 – Spare us all the phony outrage that we patriotic and God-fearing Americans decry the building of a mosque near Ground Zero. I spent 27 months living amongst muslims in THEIR land and they are all certifiably crazy to varying degrees because of their islamic political beliefs (sound familiar? see: liberals). It is more than fair to lump them all into one category: Batshit crazy. Why? Because none of them TRULY are against what only the crazy ones actually attempt. None of them. There is never any denunciation on their part, NEVER. Only half feigned attempts to make excuses that sound like an apology all the while concocting their next suicidal, jihadist killing spree. So if you're offended that the MAJORITY of Americans are against this mosque then I don't give two shits. You'd be against it, too, if you used your head for something other than a hat rack.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Danny-Browning/1666222445 Danny Browning

        #3. Crack open some history books.

        “[When] the [Virginia] bill for establishing religious freedom… was finally passed,… a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word “Jesus Christ,” so that it should read “a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion.” The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination.” –Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821. ME 1:67

        Mahometan referring to Islam. http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm

        • Common Sense

          Sigh… see above in a previous response to Danny's ingorant ass.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Danny-Browning/1666222445 Danny Browning

            You didn't actually respond to anything above. You just said I have no contextual understanding without actual providing a counter point. But then, it must be common sense that I'm an ignorant ass, so no counter point must be needed!

          • Common Sense

            You're starting to catch on. Slowly… but surely.

          • Rose

            You are an ignorant ass, for sure.

            http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/PDF/GovtExM.pdf

            Cataloged as “Exhibit 003-0085” by the U.S. federal government, a document translated from Arabic to English titled An Explanatory Memorandum, On the General Strategic Goal for the Group In North America details the objectives of the Muslim Brotherhood in America.
            …
            4- Understanding the role of the Muslim Brother in North America:
            The process of settlement is a “Civilization-Jihadist Process” with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who chose to slack. But, would the slackers and the Mujahedeen be equal.

        • Rose

          So. Apply it properly. It was never meant to empower enemies for their physical battles against Americans. You cannot make a right of the Constitution to use it to batter down America's Constitution and her law abiding citizens, either way.

          So the HAMAS GUNRUNNERS building Cordoba House Victory Mosque at Ground Zero, as their GAZA IN AMERICA, to set up a FACADE, A FAKE FRONT for a fort and armory to launch attacks against American Citizens who oppose Shari-a Law — THEY DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT to do that at Ground Zero or anywhere else, and when they are sooooo blatant, as to call it Cordoba House – title his book in Malaysia, Cordoba House, Gaza in America, batantly operating “Free Gaza Flotilla” with Bill Ayers – we have a right to say, THIS IS NOT ABOUT RELIGION!

          This is about insurgency for an ALTERNATE GOVERNMENT POWER to overthrow the government RATIFIED by the AMERICAN CITIZENS.

          You can masquerade all you want – you are fooling NOBODY!

          And the Govt of the USA has the documents in evidence to prove it!

          http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/PDF/GovtExM.pdf

          Cataloged as “Exhibit 003-0085” by the U.S. federal government, a document translated from Arabic to English titled An Explanatory Memorandum, On the General Strategic Goal for the Group In North America details the objectives of the Muslim Brotherhood in America.
          …
          “4- Understanding the role of the Muslim Brother in North America:
          The process of settlement is a “Civilization-Jihadist Process” with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who chose to slack. But, would the slackers and the Mujahedeen be equal.”

      • Jane

        Clearly Islam is a religion. The extent to which it is also a political ideology mimic the extent to which christianity is.

        Whether the majority of early americans were christiants does not mean that America ought to favor christianity over other faiths.

        You're the crazy one to say that all muslims are certifiably crazy to one degree or another.

        • Common Sense

          Clearly it isn't. You'd understand that if your IQ was above that of an amoeba.

          You're right, I should have clarified. Ahem… All muslims, in addition to jane, are certifiably crazy.

          Better?

          • Jane

            Define “Religion”.

            Can't?

            Didn't think so.

            Lazy you are.

          • Common Sense

            Yep, you're still certifiably crazy. Thanks for removing all doubt.

          • Jane

            I know why you dont want to define “religion”. It would prove your statements wrong.

            Coward.

          • Common Sense

            I've already defined what it isn't in two simple words. That alone should make it clear what it is but I understand that most things in life are over your head which you've made abundantly clear here this evening and I am above explaining things to you, Simpleton Jane, to the point of having to use a crayon to do so. Thanks for playing.

          • Rose

            No it doesn't prove Common Sense wrong, but it isn't what YOU call religion, so there would be no common definition for you to relate to.

            James 1:27
            Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

            There is no help for you in this.

          • Rose

            Jesus' definition of “religion” wouldn't make any sense to you and there is no way to translate it for you.

          • blkdragon

            You are a nitwit.

        • Rose

          Islam is a DICTATORSHIP! Brutal and bloody, vicious beyond imagination, and rather comparable to Marxism, all things considered.

          It is your Harvest coming to meet YOU. You know how they honor homosexuality, don't you? And uncovered meat…

          You are what they have in mind. No doubt about it.

    • percivalcreek

      She's against Koran burning because it will insight our enemies.

      Yep. We certainly can't have them going blind now, can we?

      For someone who comes across as an insufferable know-it-all, you sure aren't very bright.

    • TheDickNixon

      mosque

    • mightysamurai

      liberals believe it is inconsistent with liberty to accuse all members of a community with possessing the sins demonstrated by the few members of that community.

      Uh huh. Get back to me when you're ready to apologize for calling everyone who doesn't think the Cordoba mosque is a good idea bigots.

      • Jane

        Of course it is. And you know it. Not stop being lazy, man up, and present some sort of argument.

        • Common Sense

          *Yawn*…

        • mightysamurai

          Of course it is.

          Says who? You?

          Why should I trust a bigot like you to tell me what anyone believes?

        • Rose

          Your battle is already lost, why do we have to finish eviscerating you?

          The polling data shows most Americans including most MOSLIMS in America object to the building of a Cordoba House in the USA.
          everyone sees it as an antagonistic act and a provocation against America.

          Many overseas moslims see it as a plot by JEWS to being DISCREDIT to MOSLIMS for being so insensitive.

          YOU present a winning argument. Something we have never seen before – not from you – not from Feisal Abdul Rauf, either!

        • http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

          Then why isn't anyone calling for the Mother mosque 2 buildings down from Park51 to be torn down, MORON?!?!

    • blkdragon

      “American is not a 'christian nation' in the way that Iraq is a muslim nation as she implies.” ~ Jane

      Considering at least 85% of Americans self identify as Christian and ALL of our basic laws are based on Christian precepts to state that America is not a Christian Nation is a little idiotic.

      • http://www.wordaroundthenet.com Christopher Taylor

        True, but that still doesn't make the US a Christian Nation like Islamic nations are, they are Islamic and ONLY Islamic, using ONLY Islamic laws and political systems, etc.

    • Rose

      Such baloney – as usual.

  • Guess

    Both are equally ignorant philosophies. There… I didn't take sides. :)

    • Jane

      Hard not to agree with that. Plus, they are very similar monotheistic expressions of faith that have a common lineage.

      • tblrk2006

        Common lineage? No. More like overlapping geography.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Danny-Browning/1666222445 Danny Browning

          Islam is essentially a divergence from Christianity that took a number of its teachings, turned Jesus and Mohammed into prophets, and added additional scriptures.

          Kind of like mormonism.

          • TheDickNixon

            Well the simple fact that Islam denies Christ's divinity sort of makes it different that Christianity. That and the whole murdering innocent people gets you to heaven instantly thing.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Danny-Browning/1666222445 Danny Browning

            Still divergent lineage, since Islam was modelled after Christianity, diverging due to the belief that Christ wasn't divine.

            And you don't get to heaven by murdering innocent people in Islam. You get to heaven if you give your life fighting those that have chosen war against Islam. The fault lies in that easily corrupted minds have been twisted to think that all of America is at war with Islam, such that some Saudi oil baron can reap profits from a war.

          • TheDickNixon

            “And you don't get to heaven by murdering innocent people in Islam. “

            That is what they believe.

          • Jane

            Then why don't we see American muslims murdering Americans.

          • mightysamurai

            Nidal Malik Hasan.

          • Jane

            But if they all believe they should murder, why don't you give us a million names. Woops….Maybe because you've been schooled…..once again. Run home little boy. You've been schooled.

          • TheDickNixon

            Hamas Jane. Remember Hamas.

          • Common Sense

            LOL, Simpleton Jane. Just another character in the cast of liberal fools whose posts are closer to a Greek tragedy than anything else.

          • blkdragon

            Every “eco-nut” out there technically believes that the Earth would be better off without any Humans alive, but they don't ALL go on killing sprees. Maybe it has to do with that species specific imperative to not kill yourself off.

          • mightysamurai

            You asked for evidence of muslim-Americans murdering other Americans. Don't get pissy because I called your bluff and exposed your ignorance.

          • Scotty

            As far as I know, Muslims are taught to “lay low” until they are in a the position to do just that.

          • Rose

            You've schooled nobody in your life.

            Cordoba House schooled you! Free Gaza Flotilla schooled you.

          • Common Sense

            Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad.

            Any other ignorant questions, Simpleton Jane?

          • TheDickNixon

            Honor killings, they happen in America.

          • Rose

            http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/PDF/GovtExM.pdf

            “Cataloged as “Exhibit 003-0085” by the U.S. federal government, a document translated from Arabic to English titled An Explanatory Memorandum, On the General Strategic Goal for the Group In North America details the objectives of the Muslim Brotherhood in America.”
            ————
            Explains how they start slow and careful and friendly, then as they gain strength, begin to coalesce together and begin fundamentally to change as they secretly organize in unspoken ways, and begin to establish strongholds and establish law centers.

            They know our government has this document, and they don't care – Obama is a spokesman in their defense.

          • blkdragon

            “And you don't get to heaven by murdering innocent people in Islam. You get to heaven if you give your life fighting those that have chosen war against Islam.” ~ Danny Browning

            Bullshit, read the Koran. It clearly states that anyone that dies “Fighting for Islam” will enter the “highest” levels of heaven.

          • Rose

            Liar. Bald-faced liar.

            http://www.wallbuilders.com/downloads/newsletter/Winter2006.pdf
            “Adams and Thomas Jefferson candidly asked the Ambassador from Tripoli the motivation behind their unprovoked attacks against Americans. What was the response?
            “The Ambassador answered us that it was founded on the laws of their Prophet [Mohammed] – that it was written in their Koran that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners; that is was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners; and that every Musselman [Muslim] who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise. 17″

          • Jane

            For ages, Christians believed you could buy your way into heaven. And then there were the crusades and the inquisition. In the recent past there was the belief that the bible sanctioned racism as well as sexism. Today, christians use their faith to explain their homophobia and bigotry.

            It's quite easy to conclude that Islam and christianity are equally absurd.

          • mightysamurai

            For ages, Christians believed

            “Christians believed” is not the same as “Christianity teaches”. Learn the difference.

          • Common Sense

            pwned.

          • Jane

            There is no difference to those that “believe”. Who is to say your version of Christianity is the correct version. Unless you claim to be a prophet.

          • mightysamurai

            Who is to say your version of Christianity is the correct version.

            Well you see, a long time ago there was this guy named “Jesus” and he wrote this book…

          • Martha

            Except the Christ never wrote one word.

          • TheDickNixon

            correct. He said the Word.

          • Jane

            Actually we have very little idea what he said since the bible was written long after he died and revamped numerous times, by committee nonetheless. Very unreliable. Hence the many denominations.

          • TheDickNixon

            Actually, the Gospels had started being circulated within 20 years of His life on Earth. Acts and Romans were written before 70AD. Revelation was written within 55 years of Christ's resurrection, therefore the Gospel of John was written earlier.

            No charge dufus. Read Lee Stroebel's Case for Christ, it has a whole chapter on dating the Gospels.

          • Rose

            Tell yourself. That line of yours isn't one hundred years old! Isn't that amazing?

            But it is the right relative revisionism for you. Take my word for it!

          • http://www.wordaroundthenet.com Christopher Taylor

            This is such a sad, weak argument. Only someone inculcated with comparative religion nonsense in a college could be dumb enough to believe this.

            The Bible is one of the most authenticated, well-documented, and well-sourced books on earth with more period and contemporary copies and support in histories on earth. Compared to other works from that time, the Bible has five to fifty times as much material, most of it far more contemporary source material than well-revered works like Juvenal, Plutarch, and Herodites.

            Just spend a few minutes studying this stuff instead of nodding when your prof says something okay?

          • Rose

            Keep telling yourself that, child of Be-elzebub. Just keep telling yourself.

          • http://www.wordaroundthenet.com Christopher Taylor

            By that logic, none of the Gospels contain Jesus Christ's “word” either, so what do you go by?

          • Jane

            And yet, that book, which Christ did not write, is interpreted numerous ways. Demonstrating once again that I am correct and you are, as you so often are, a dolt.

          • mightysamurai

            I love how idiot atheists always fall back on the “interpretation” argument when faced with clear evidence of what Christianity says.

            The Bible is not written in Klingon. The message is there for anyone to read. If you're so interested in finding out what the Bible really teaches, why don't you go read it for once in your miserable life? You might learn something.

          • Rose

            Is it REALLY! Do tell!

            Hang with that tale, Jane – that is the one for you!

          • Mahatma

            named “Jesus” and he wrote this book…

            Huh? Thought he was dead by the time the little book was written… Wasn't some dudes like Peter and Matthew and Luke channeling Hay-Zuess?

          • Rose

            Did you now, really! And never met Him in your own esoteric travels with your own familiars…

            Do tell!

          • TheDickNixon

            “For ages, Christians believed you could buy your way into heaven.”

            Book, Chapter, and Verse where Christ stated this. Nixon will wait.

          • Jane

            They were called “indulgences”. It's part of what Martin Luther protested.

          • TheDickNixon

            Answer the question Jane. Book, Chapter, and Verse where Jesus Christ stated you could buy your way into Heaven.

            You going to run away again like you did last night?

          • Jane

            We have no idea what christ said. Only the word of folks who wrote stuff down ages after he died.

          • TheDickNixon

            P3wned. All Nixon asked was for you to prove your statement that Christ's teachings said you can buy your way to heaven. You provided no proof. Thats two straight evenings you have been bitch slapped by Nixon. Here, and last night with the whole Ground Zero MOsque iman's refusal to admit hamas is a terrorist group.

            Two for two. Nixon is on a roll

          • Common Sense

            Your ignorance continues to shine through. Shocker.

          • blkdragon

            Considering the majority of Arabic culture was ORAL at the time, and we have no reason to believe anybody had reason to lie maybe we could give it the benefit of doubt.

          • Rose

            Tell yourself. I love it when you tell yourself.

            In spite of what Truth that you know.

            Stick with that which you are telling yourself. That is the ticket for you. Don't confuse yourself.

          • blkdragon

            Yes, Martin Luther.
            The Ex-Catholic who returned the Christian Faith to the individual and broke the Catholic Church's strangle hold on Christianity. The entire reason why he “protested” was because the Catholic Church had subverted Christianity for their own purposes.

          • Rose

            Please do. PLEASE DO!

            Avoid Christianity like the PLAGUE!

            Believe me, you don't want to go where WE are going! You wouldn't like it where WE will be!

          • Good Ol Boy

            I agree, in part. Mohammed did plagerize the Hebrew Tanakh, Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketuvim (the wellsprings of all Christianity) to create his 'teachings'… but then he added his own bigotries into the mix.

          • mightysamurai

            No. No it isn't. Islam and Christianity are fundamentally different religions. You are arguing from a position of extreme ignorance here.

          • Common Sense

            He's been displaying it the whole time, Samurai. It's rather sad and comical at the same time… sort of like a Greek tragedy.

          • Rose

            Not remotely. Some child molesting robber baron liked to listen to Christian stories around the evening campfires.

            And he liked to embellish, and create his own tall tales – and he liked to pretend he himself was something much better than he actually was.

            But he was not ever a Christian who simply perverted it.

            He didn't write/create the religion, his best friend, a Siddiki, used him as the centerpiece, “larger than life hero” when he created something to make a king of himself and subjects of his listeners. A way for him to ascend to the power of his dead friend.

        • Jane

          Abraham!

          • blkdragon

            Actually the difference is pronounced. Both the Judeu-Christian tradition and the Islamic tradition teach their faith comes from Abraham, but there is a major difference. Judaism and Christianity teach that God's Grace came Abraham's son Isaac, by his wife Sarah. While Islam teaches Abraham and Jesus are prophets of Islam and the ancestor of Muhammad through Abraham's other son Ishmael, born to him by Sarah's handmaiden, Hagar.
            This is not a small difference considering it changes who is the chosen of God.

          • Jane

            And it's all silliness. But, they are definitely related, as I said. I'm correct, as usual.

          • TheDickNixon

            correct like the hamas and Ground Zero Mosque abuse you took last night?

          • Common Sense

            Hardly.

          • Rose

            You are wrong – tragically wrong. The Heir of Shalom Covenant Blessing cannot and did not come through the child of a bondslave, but through the Miracle child of a Free Woman Covenant Wife.

            Hagar had nothing but bitterness in her to give, and bitterness is all she imparted to her son of a slavewoman, Ishmael, NOT THE MIRACLE CHILD of a 90 year old Sarai, whom God Jehovah called Sarah.

            Blood Covenant understands that Abram and Sarai both had their names changed by God Jehovah Himself. Hagar retained her SLAVE NAME.

            If Abraham had obeyed God, Ishmael would NEVER have been born.

            But Isaac, Abraham and Sarah were not the ones who made THAT Miracle happen. God gave them Isaac.

            God did not reprimand Sarah or Abraham, either for throwing Hagar out with her son who harrassed Sarah and Isaac beyond endurance out of a vicious slave spirit. A usurper's spirit.

            Hagar was stupid the 12 years before Isaac was born, after Ishmael – but when Isaac was born to a 90 yr old woman, Hagar should have said “UH-OH! I DIDN'T COUNT ON THAT!”

            But she did not. She continued in her bitterness.

            What fruit could come from such bitterness? NOT the line of the RED ROPE OF THE MESSIAH!

            God Jehovah had mercy on Hagar and Ishmael because of what Abraham did that was not in obedience. He never told Hagar that Ishmael was the Heir of Abraham.
            He told Hagar that Ishmael would be the father of many tribes – but never that he would ever be the Heir of Abraham.

            His children honor no Covenant term properly, either, never have.

          • Rose

            No, they were disinherited from Abraham because they rejected the Blood Covenant. They broke their own branches off, and began to attack Abraham's Heirs. They always and still to this day had access, but it required they acknowledge the True Heir, whom they rejected time after time after time. Regardless of accompanying Miracles that confirmed God's Choice!

      • TheDickNixon

        flagged for inaccuracy

      • http://www.wordaroundthenet.com Christopher Taylor

        Much of Islam is based on Muhammad's ignorant conception of Christianity and Judaism, mixed with tribalism and Moon god worship from his childhood. So yeah, there's some common heritage.

        But in no reasonable or historical way can Islam trace their faith back to Abraham.

      • Rose

        No common lineage, much as the muslims would love to co-opt it, they fundamentally disagree at a critical juncture – over the Abrahamic Covenant.

        They claim Abraham as an ancester, true – but deny his Blood Covenant with Jehovah, and take up the emblem of one of the m ost powrful enemies of His people when they embrace the CRESCENT of BAAL, which was worshipped by the Muslim's ancestors who refused to submit to Abraham's Blood Covenant, warred the most viciously against the Jews, because it meant bowing the knee to Abraham's successors, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, and insisted that THEY were the Children of Inheritance of the Covenant – living for thousands of years in abject denial of the TERMS OF THE COVENANT, as opposed to the Faithful Jews and when you confront them about it – they disappear when you show that you specifically know how THEY KNOW, and that they REFUSE to honor the covenant they claim is THEIRS, while the JEWS are still carefully holding it together!

        No Covenant Keeper of the God of the Household of Abraham would hold tight to the symbol of the CRESCENT.

        You can be ignorant, clearly are – the Middle East is NOT! The Middle East knows Blood Covenant as you do not.

        THEY know what that means. You talk to a Middle Eastern Muslim and they know and get quite upset if you start explaining Covenant Terms for which they are both familiar, and also well aware of all the SCORN THEY HAVE HEAPED ON JEWS FOR ADHERING TO!

        I.E., Middle easterners STILL laugh at Jews for “ritually washing their hands before all meals” in honor of the Abrahamic Covenant – 200 years after Dr. Lister made the news of GERMS quite public.

    • Common Sense

      The philosophy of Jesus Christ is ignorant? You obviously don't know or don't like to read. The only thing ignorant here is you.

    • Rose

      Stand in the middle like good roadkill!

  • tblrk2006

    1. b/c they are scared of it. 2. b/c they see political power in opposition to the masses of Americans in favor of lots of minority groups that dont give a shit about anyone or anything but their own interests….islam is one of them, just like gay marriers are another.

  • UFKA_Smithwick

    Enemy of mine enemy . . .

  • northerncanuck

    Why? A whole lot of fear and a bit of common sense.
    They know the viciousness of johadists and that the jihadists would cause them great pain. Liberals are cowards and have no moral fortitude.
    They also know Christians are meek, forgiving and tolerant. So they're free to hurl all their invective risk free. Cowards.

  • D-Vega

    We are not siding with Islam, we are siding with American values.

    • UFKA_Smithwick

      Elaborate.

      Because so far I've seen the left condemn protests against the mosque in new york organized by private citizens and democrat politicians advocate using the FBI to investigate the roots of the protests in order to intimidate any leaders of the anti-NY mosque movement.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Danny-Browning/1666222445 Danny Browning

        Although freedom of speech is an American value, it is being superceded by the fact that freedom of speech is used to encroach on religious freedom and separation of church and state.

        The protests essentially boil down to, “you are not allowed to practice your religion here”. Today here may be defined as two blocks from Ground Zero in a former Burlington coat factory surrounded by strip clubs, but tomorrow here could be defined as all of the United States.

        • mightysamurai

          Muslims being asked not to build a mosque within the debris field of 9/11 out of respect for the sensitivities of the majority of Americans does not “prevent” them from freely exercising their religion. In fact, no one has done anything to physically or legally prevent the Ground Zero Mosque builders from building on that site. They have only asked that they build it somewhere else.

          Clearly you do not comprehend the meaning of freedom of religion or freedom of speech.

        • TheDickNixon

          “that freedom of speech is used to encroach on religious freedom and separation of church and state. “

          Since you say this isn't a mosque, your argument doesn't make sense.

        • Kingfisher

          The protests essentially boil down to, “you are not allowed to practice your religion here”.

          You mean, like erecting a nativity scene in a public area during a legitimately recognized holiday like Christmas.

        • freeman

          Although freedom of speech is an American value, it is being superceded by the fact that freedom of speech is used to encroach on religious freedom and separation of church and state.

          So religious freedom in more important than freedom of speech? Then you're saying that Christians should be able to protest abortion clinics, because it is required by their religion, and the government blocking them is a violation of church and state. Gotcha.

          Also, is there a chart of which freedom is more important than which? Is it an advanced form of rock – paper -scissors?

        • UFKA_Smithwick

          “Although freedom of speech is an American value, it is being superceded by the fact that freedom of speech is used to encroach on religious freedom and separation of church and state. “

          Ah so freedom of speech extends only so far as you deem it acceptable.

          I'm so glad the founders were quite clear on this: freedom of speech is absolute . . . unless it hurts someones feelings.

          BTW: who is being prevented from worshiping? And in what way is the government involved? Because freedom of religion protects against government involvement in your religious affairs, it says nothing about private citizens protesting against your beliefs.

          “The protests essentially boil down to, “you are not allowed to practice your religion here”"

          I didn't know they worshiping buildings and construction projects. What an odd religion. I would think an overweight, sweaty construction worker with his ass hanging out would take away from the sanctity of the religion, but apparently not.

          “Today here may be defined as two blocks from Ground Zero in a former Burlington coat factory surrounded by strip clubs, but tomorrow here could be defined as all of the United States. “

          And then the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Trench_Raider

      Bulls—t.

      You guys stick up for Islam in every circumstance that it comes up. While many, many on your side have an abject hatred for Christianity not a cross word is ever said about Islam. By all rights, given what the left purports to believe you should have nothing but contempt for the religion, yet you give it a complete pass.

      TR

      • Jane

        We “Stick up” for liberty and we stand up for the proposition that no religions should be treated differently where govt. is concerned. We stand up for the notion that one man's sins do not transfer to another man.

        • Common Sense

          The only “stick up” is the one up your ass, jane. And you wouldn't know tolerance and liberty if it bit you on yours.

          • Jane

            You make no sense.

          • Common Sense

            There you go talking to yourself, again, Simpleton Jane. But you're right, you don't.

          • blkdragon

            Only because you're a nitwit.

        • mightysamurai

          We “Stick up” for liberty and we stand up for the proposition that no religions should be treated differently where govt. is concerned.

          In that case, since no one has advocated getting the government involved, I guess you have no argument.

          • Jane

            Actually, I just saw a woman on FOX News say she and her organization will fight the mosque. But that's beside the point.

          • TheDickNixon

            So now it's a mosque?

          • mightysamurai

            Actually, I just saw a woman on FOX News say she and her organization will fight the mosque.

            Unless that “organization” is the government, you still have no argument.

          • Jane

            You said “no one has advocated getting the government involved”.

            I have a case.

            You have to start manning up and putting some thought behind your mushy thoughts.

          • mightysamurai

            You said “no one has advocated getting the government involved”.

            Yeah, and no one has. Your own example refutes your whole point.

      • D-Vega

        I have some contempt for all organized religion. There is little reason to have so much organization for a personal relationship with God.

        I support muslims having the same considerations everyone else does here in the states. Opposing that issue is the pure definition of discrimination.

        Around the world, muslim countries are f*cked up, with a varying degree depending on the country.

        We are not siding with Islam. Opposing ethnic profiling, torture, and defending due process, habeas corpus and privacy is not siding with anyone.

        • http://www.wordaroundthenet.com Christopher Taylor

          Any time you get a lot of people involved in something, organization is inevitable. Suspicion of organization is inconsistent for a leftist anyway; you guys love big government.

    • blkdragon

      LOL. You keep believing that!

    • http://www.wordaroundthenet.com Christopher Taylor

      I know what you mean Vega, but you have to admit that when Christians try to do something, inevitably the left finds a reason that's bad, and when Muslims do, inevitably the left finds reasons that they should be allowed to or assisted in it.

      Build a cross on public lands? left hates it
      Build a crescent shaped memorial to 9/11 victims? Left supports it.
      Set up a chapel in an airport? Left protests
      Set up foot washing troughs in an airport? Left demands it.
      Require people to give out medicine you are morally opposed to? Left demands it.
      Require people to work in a building that happens to process pork and sue the company for violating your religion? Left supports it.

      Now I realize “the left” isn't some monolithic entity with lockstep agreement on all issues, but look at the news and tell me that the perception that the left supports Islam much more than Christianity isn't at least understandable.

      • D-Vega

        Perception is not reality. Christianity is a huge chunk of our identity as a country. If 85% of the people are Christian, then you would expect the issues concerning state & religion to be Christian more than often.

        • http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

          And Nativity scenes on courthouse lawns, prayer in schools, and changing Christmas Break to Winter Break, aren't attacks on Chrisitanity?? What f'n reality do you live in?

        • http://www.wordaroundthenet.com Christopher Taylor

          Whether perception is reality or not, it is not unreasonable for people to come to the conclusion that she originally posted. And I think the primary reason for that is that leftists tend to side with the underdog, perceiving them as the oppressed minority “other” against anyone who disagrees. Then there's the all-too-common human response of being against whatever your foe is for; every once in a while a leftist posting here admits that: “I'm for foetal stem cell research because Dobson is against it!”

          Again, not everyone is like that, but enough are that the perception is pretty accurate.

    • Rose

      Not you!

  • StanW

    It is simple.

    To side with Christianity and against Islam would put Liberals in agreement with Conservatives. And Liberals will NEVER aloow that to happen.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Danny-Browning/1666222445 Danny Browning

    It's not about Islam over Christianity, it's about embracing the ideals set forth by the founders of this country, namely, liberty.

    First of all, it is a community center. It includes space for non-religious activity, as well as room for prayer for all religions. Since it includes a mosque as part of its space, the whole project has been deemed a mosque. As far as I know, there has never been an issue with building community centers.

    Second, this country was built on religious freedom. Even if it was nothing but a mosque, it should be built. America is great because you can practice any religion, and has remained great because of the sacrifices of Americans, whether they be Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Atheist. To say that people are not free to practice a religion is in effect trivializing the sacrifice that many Americans have made in keeping America free.

    Third, this whole issue is a smoke cloud to distract Americans from a vote that would have provided health care to people who sacrificed for this country, first responders during 9/11. While everyone has been up in arms over a community center, they have missed the real issue of trivialization of another sacrifice, which was voted down because of cost while tax cuts for the rich are extended, and multi-millionaires don't have to pay estate tax. You want to be angry about something, be angry about that.

    • UFKA_Smithwick

      “To say that people are not free to practice a religion is in effect trivializing the sacrifice that many Americans have made in keeping America free. “

      Please explain how a privately organized protest against *ONE* mosque that is *NOT* demanding the government intervene in any way is preventing Muslims from practicing their faith in this country.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Danny-Browning/1666222445 Danny Browning

        Simple. Once you stop this mosque from being built, at one point will the protests stop? What will you think when someone prevents a church from being built?

        You can't pick and choose when to have religious freedom. If there is nothing in the building code to prevent this from happening, then they are free to build there.

        • mightysamurai

          Are you stupid? How does a private organization convincing someone not to build a mosque, or any other kind of building, in a certain place infringe on religious freedom in the slightest?

          The Constitution does not require us to accommodate all religions. It only prevents the government from limiting the free exercise of religion. Since the government has done no such thing, and since none of the protestors has asked the government to do such a thing, there is no infringement on religious freedom.

          If the American people decide that a certain religion does not conform to our preferred values, we have every right in the world to say so and advocate that they find somewhere else to live. The only thing the First Amendment does is stop us from driving them out by force of law.

          • Jane

            First, that's not what the first amendment does.

            Second, no one is suggesting that their is govt. action being taken against the center. It's being suggested that plain, ugly bigotry is behind the opposition to the center.

          • Common Sense

            A true bigot, thy name is Simpleton Jane.

          • blkdragon

            To quote the first part of the First Amendment…
            “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”

            Samurai is correct.

          • mightysamurai

            First, that's not what the first amendment does.

            Yes it is, you ignoramus. The First Amendment is a limit on the government, not the private citizen. It prohibits the government from preventing the free exercise of religion or favoring one religion over another. It does not prohibit private organizations or private citizens from saying “this is wrong, stop doing that”.

            Second, no one is suggesting that their is govt. action being taken against the center.

            Then as I said, you do not have an argument.

        • AF_Vet

          “What will you think when someone prevents a church from being built? ”

          You mean something like, say, oh I don't know….the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, located right at Ground Zero, destroyed on 9/11…the Church still currently owns the land…and is STILL NOT BEING ALLOWED TO REBUILD THEIR OWN CHURCH IN THE SAME SPOT WHERE IT STOOD BEFORE?

          Where's your outrage now?

          You can't pick and choose when to have religious freedom.

          • Jane

            Is anyone protesting the rebuilding of the church on ideological grounds? LOL…Too easy, again.

          • Common Sense

            I'm sure you'll find a few ideological reasons. LOL, what a c*nt you are.

          • Jane

            Not me….I'm all for it being built. I say let it rip, assuming there are are no zoning or legal issues holding it up.

          • AF_Vet

            But, wait? You're saying that the 'constitutional right' to build a church where ever you damn well please can be infringed by zoning officials and planning boards?

            Wait a minute…something doesn't make sense here…..

          • mightysamurai

            So it's okay to oppose letting someone build a place of worship, so long as you don't argue on “ideological grounds”?

          • Jane

            Maybe it's ok. You'd have to ask the plannng director. Why is the church being held up?

          • mightysamurai

            Because the people who ran the original church refuse to grease the palms of city officials to get their project fast-tracked, like the muslims did to get their mosque fast-tracked.

            Nice to see you have no problem with the government preventing houses of worship from being built, though. Says a lot about you.

          • blkdragon

            The government of New York refuses to grant the permits necessary for the church to be rebuilt, so I'd say… YES!

          • AF_Vet

            So Jane…tell us: how'd that little strawman work out for ya?

            LOL…too easy. Please domn't try again, you'll only hurt yourself! Ouch!

          • UFKA_Smithwick

            It's true, no one is. And that does complete derail the argument against the mosque as exactly half of the 9/11 hijackers were greek orthodox Christians.

            Pretty hypocritical to only protest against mosques when as many Christians were responsible for 9/11 as muslims.

            Oh wait . . .

          • DrEvil

            No one is protesting the fact that the government is preventing them from re-building their church. You have a point, we should be protesting the government's refusal to allow this church to rebuild.

            Have an Evil day

        • UFKA_Smithwick

          “Simple. Once you stop this mosque from being built, at one point will the protests stop? What will you think when someone prevents a church from being built? “

          Who is stopping it? The federal government? No, they are for it. The state or city? Nope, again they are pro-mosque.

          All you have are private citizens trying to show their displeasure with this and convince the owner to not be such a dick.

          So again, who is preventing it from being built?

          I know this is a hard concept for a leftist what with everything being settled through the government and coercion for yall, but we are not asking for either of those entities to get involved here.

          “You can't pick and choose when to have religious freedom. “

          You can't pick and choose when to have freedom of speech.

          “If there is nothing in the building code to prevent this from happening, then they are free to build there. “

          Find one person on here who has said otherwise.

          I don't know what that strawman ever did to you, but maybe you could lay off him for a while? Yeah, you whooped his straw-ass good, but maybe you can come back and deal with the real world for a bit?

    • Common Sense

      Again, Islam is not a religion. It's a political ideology that wishes to usurp world governments for Sharia. I can't think of anything in this world more oppressive than islam… except for maybe the Nazis… and progressive ideology.

      If you think Catholic mass will be taking place in your so-called “community center” then you really are smoking crack, my friend. They're naming it the Cordoba mosque for a reason. History: go read about it.

      And I seriously doubt you'd understand anything about the Founding Fathers and their beliefs/convictions even if they came back from the dead and had an afternoon tea with you.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Danny-Browning/1666222445 Danny Browning

        And Christianity is not a political ideology? People have not been burned as witches because of Christianity? Countries have not been invaded because of Christianity? Abortion clinics have not been bombed because of Christianity? Federal agents weren't killed because of Christianity?

        Politics and religion often get intertwined. That is why our founding fathers wanted separation of church and state to prevent these issues.

        And I would actually understand more about the founding fathers than you, simply based on your ignorance of their quotes on the issue:

        “[When] the [Virginia] bill for establishing religious freedom… was finally passed,… a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word “Jesus Christ,” so that it should read “a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion.” The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination.” –Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821. ME 1:67

        Mahometan referring to Islam. http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm

        • Common Sense

          Nope.

          And your lack of a contextural understanding of American history is breathtaking. Bravo, Danny, bravo. Please, keep posting. This is fun.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Danny-Browning/1666222445 Danny Browning

            Please enlighten me then oh common sense. Because as far as I can tell from that quote, all religions were embraced by the founding fathers.

          • Common Sense

            Sorry, Danny, I paid too much for my UVA history Ph.D to do your homework for you for free. Maybe spend a little more time in a library or an historical archives studying and grasping the concept of “context” and a little less time slobbering on yourself whilst watching MSNBC.

          • Jane

            Once again, no response. You right wingers are way too easy. How come it's always the Right Wing Nutjobs that run from a discussion once facts and quotes are introduced? What a P*ssy.

          • TheDickNixon

            Like you ran last night about the Ground Zero Mosque iman and hamas?

          • Common Sesne

            I genuinely wish you were able to carry on a sensible conversation, Simpleton Jane, but, alas, you've proven to be a run-of-the-mill liberal capable only of mindless drivel.

            How come it's always the Left Wing Terrorists that bring nothing to the table except for their incessant whining and reliance on wikipedia, dailykos and moveon.org?

          • Jane

            LOL..”Left Wing Terrorist”. Hilarious.

          • TheDickNixon

            Like hamas and their close friend the Ground Zero mosque iman?

          • Common Sense

            I fail to see the humor in your type committing acts of violence. But I guess that's all you've got left when you're bested on a nightly basis on websites such as these.

          • Jane

            What a surprise. No response. You right wingers here are too easy.

          • Common Sense

            Apparently the only too easy was your mother which, unfortunately, spawned your worthless, oxygen robbing self.

          • scotty

            Not cool.

        • http://www.wordaroundthenet.com Christopher Taylor

          And Christianity is not a political ideology?

          Nope. However, a lot of political and philosophical ideas have been heavily influenced by Christianity and its doctrines, such as the origins of capitalism, modern democracy, English and US law, and the US Constitution.

      • Jane

        “Again, Islam is not a religion. It's a political ideology that wishes to usurp world governments for Sharia.”

        No one believes this.

        • Common Sense

          “No one believes this.”

          Shouldn't that read “only ignorant, uneducated, non-deodorant wearing hippy liberals don't believe this”? Hmmm, yeah, that sounds about right to me.

          • Jane

            I'll give you the same odds. $1000 says you are wrong. Put up or shut up.

          • TheDickNixon

            Prove you have the money.

          • Jane

            Yea, that's gonna happen. How about a gentlewomans' bet? Can ya handle that you little boy?

          • Common Sense

            Cause you don't have the cash except for what's in your purse in the form of food stamps. Putz.

          • TheDickNixon

            Why should Nixon concern himself with your bet? You were schooled last night regarding the Ground Zero Mosque iman and hamas. Plus, you got dusted here already tonight.

            Nixon stated that everyone with sense knows that islam's goal is converting the world ot sharia law.

            Prove Nixon wrong. Nixon has proven you wrong twice in 24 hours.

          • Common Sense

            I seriously doubt you have $1,000 to wager. You'd probably have to sell your '68 VW van, collection of Star Wars memorabilia and first edition Harry Potter books just to come close to that amount of money.

          • Jane

            Let me guess, that's a way of you saying that you don't want to get anywhere near that bet cause you know you are wrong. What a putz!

          • Common Sense

            No, that's my way of saying you don't have $1,000 to wager. Simple English, really. But, then again, it's you we're dealing with here so it doesn't surprise me that you can't comprehend simple words strung together to form a coherent sentence.

            So riddle me this, Simpleton Jane, if you cash in this month's welfare check and food stamps to scrounge up $1k in greenbacks, how are your 7 kids by different fathers going to survive when you lose that taxpayer cash to me?

        • TheDickNixon

          Everyone knows this. Flagged for stupidity

          • Jane

            Want to bet that “everyone knows this”? I'm guessing not. I've got $1000 that says you are wrong.

          • TheDickNixon

            Sort of like you knew that the Ground Zero Mosque iman wouldn't call hamas a terror group?

    • mightysamurai

      First of all, it is a community center.

      In that case, preventing it from being built infringes on no one's religious freedom. Thank you for conceding the argument.

      Even if it was nothing but a mosque, it should be built.

      Why? Why must it be built? Why are we required to let this mosque be built in order to demonstrate our religious tolerance? Are the hundreds or thousands of mosques already built all over the country not already a testament to America's respect for religious freedom?

      And even if it was necessary to build this mosque to demonstrate our religious tolerance, why does it have to be built there? Why two blocks away from the WTC, within the debris field of the 9/11 attacks? Why not somewhere else in Manhattan? Wouldn't that be just as much a demonstration of our religious tolerance?

      Third, this whole issue is a smoke cloud to distract Americans from a vote that would have provided health care to people who sacrificed for this country, first responders during 9/11. While everyone has been up in arms over a community center, they have missed the real issue of trivialization of another sacrifice, which was voted down because of cost while tax cuts for the rich are extended, and multi-millionaires don't have to pay estate tax. You want to be angry about something, be angry about that.

      Setting aside your multiple fallacies here, how did people being opposed to this mosque somehow cause this measure you speak of to be voted down?

      • Jane

        The Feeeelings of the families of victims should be no issue here since the folks building the center had nothing to do with the killing of their family members.

        Yet, opponents want to link them to the killing with no evidence. It's tawdry and ugly and bigoted. And everyone knows it. What's scary is folks like you don't care.

        It's just like the anti-semitism and anti-catholicism and racism America has witnessed all these years.

        • mightysamurai

          Yet, opponents want to link them to the killing with no evidence.

          I'm sorry, you must be from another dimension where people are accusing the builders of the Cordoba mosque of being responsible for 9/11. That isn't happening here. So sorry to have confused you.

    • blkdragon

      “Second, this country was built on religious freedom.” ~ Danny Browning.

      Go back and actually read our Founding Fathers papers. Technically our country was founded on the freedom of CHRISTIAN religions. Catholicism and any others need not apply.

      • Jane

        LOL….hilarious. You know nothing of this country's history. Now I understand why you've been saying the things you say.

  • percivalcreek

    “Liberals- Why Do You Side With Islam Over Christianity?”

    Simple. They hope the crocodile eats them last.

  • Trench_Raider

    I often asked the same question. By all rights, given what the left purports to believe (human rights, being nice to homosexuals, freedom of expression, women's rights, etc) the left should have an even bigger issue with Islam than we on the right do. But they don't. It's the ONE religion out there that they will stand up for or at the very least are not critical of. But by their own statement of beliefs, their making excuses and standing up for Islam is very, very inconsistant. Leftists claim to hate intolerance and “bigotry” (despite being extremly bigoted and intolerant themselves..but that's another issue). But they support the most intolerant and bigoted of the major religions.

    But I think it usually comes down to one of two broad issues:

    -Islam is a hostorical enemy of Western civilization and culture. They have been since day one and remain such today. The left also hates Western culture and regards it as horrible, racist, imperialist, ect. Thus they view Islam as an ally. This is despite the fact that the amorality pushed by the left is one of the big issues that Islam has with the West.

    -And yes, alot of the soft spot that leftists seem to have for Islam is simply childish, knee-jerk contrarianism. “Those mean ol' conservatives have issues with Islam, so we have to oppose them.”

    In short, neither is a very logical reason. But these two are behind the vast majority of the support for Islam that the left shows.

    TR

    • Common Sense

      All very good points, TR. But like I've been saying elsewhere in other responses, islam is not a religion; it's a political ideology and an oppressive one at that. It seeks to control anything and everything and hates the very utterance of the words liberty and individual freedom. This is why the left LOVES islam and has no problem going to bat for it and all under the guise of “religious tolerance.” Libs aren't fooling anyone… except for their own, hate-filled kind.

      • Jane

        Define “Religion”.

        • Common Sense

          Not islam. Is that easy enough to comprehend, Simpleton Jane?

          • Jane

            You can't, can you.

            Let's see…They require faith.
            They pray to an unseen entity
            They promise a reward in the afterlife.

            What's this sound like: Christianity and Islam.

            What do you know.

          • TheDickNixon

            “What do you know. “

            A hell of a lot more than you.

            Flagged for trolling.

          • blkdragon

            Sorry Dick, gotta disagree with you here.

            Jane is closer to the truth than Common Sense is.

            Islam IS a religion. It is simply a religion we in the West, especially America, do not recognize. It is a religion that believes it should BE the political power. They believe in a god. They believe their god is the creator of the universe. They believe that by being good and faithful followers they will earn a reward in the afterlife. Islam IS a religion, it is just a piss poor one.

          • Jane

            Amazing…A bigot had to tell a bigot the obvious.

          • blkdragon

            And now…

            Go away troll.

          • Jane

            Run little one….Run like the wind. It's what little boy losers do.

          • TheDickNixon

            See Jane last night. Run Jane, Run.

          • http://www.facebook.com/abirmandal Abir Mandal

            Why do you keep on repeating yourself?
            Are you trying to convince us or yourself of your correctness?

          • Common Sense

            Nope, you're still Simpleton Jane, ignorant and willingly oblivious. But I do enjoy watching you spell out your stupidity. Please, continue.

          • Jane

            Man up, you little boy. I didn't think you'd have the cajones to actually answer the question.

          • TheDickNixon

            Like Nixon schooled you last night about hamas and the Ground Zero iman?

          • Jane

            Run, little boy. Run.

          • TheDickNixon

            Hamas is a terrorist organization. The Ground Zero Mosque iman doesn't agree. Sounds like he supports them. Maybe it's because he, like they, are muslim.

          • TheDickNixon

            Thought so. Thanks for your admission you were torched last night by Nixon. No charge for the lesson.

        • David

          Religion is the opposite of Christianity.

      • http://www.wordaroundthenet.com Christopher Taylor

        Well its more correct to say that Islam is not merely a religion. It is all those other things, but it is a religion as well; it deals with the worship of a deity and ethical behavior, sin, salvation and so on. It just adds on laws, philosophy, art, culture, and so on as well.

    • Good Ol Boy

      Outstanding post, TR! Its good to see you on RWN again, my friend.

      • Trench_Raider

        Likewise.

        It's good seeing you again. It's been a bit.

        TR

      • D-Vega

        GOB! Good to see you. I hope all is well with you and yours.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Danny-Browning/1666222445 Danny Browning

      Not all of Islam believes in the right violations you say. Just like not all of Christianity believes that homosexuality is a sin. There are different denominations of Islam just as there are different denominations of Christianity.

      The left doesn't have an issue with Islam as a religion. The left only has an issue with actions carried out by individuals that infringes on the rights of others, whether they be Islam, Christian, Jew, or Atheist.

      • Trench_Raider

        I should not be replying to an unregistered “guest”, but I think your point needs to be refuted.

        Granted, it's ceratinly true that 100% of any religion are not going to follow every single aspect of that faith. But the majority will. Most of the things I point out above that are issues were you leftist clowns should really have a hatred for Islam out outlined as tentets of the faith and/or are common practice in countries with Islam dominated goverments. Are their moderate muslims who buck the trend of the faith and who do not belive in the abuses that are commonly accepted by the majority? of course. But the are in the minority and they are as silent as legitimate leftist members of this forum (all two or three of them) are when confronted by the trolls. The problem is that we are NOT talking about the isolated acts of individuals. We are talking about things that are common in the faith, are backed up by Islamic scripture, and about which the moderates in that community are almost completely silent about.

        Finally, your comparison between Christianity and Islam you made in another post is way off. Have their been widespread abuses commited in the name of Christianity? Sure. But as practiced today (and that's the important point here) by the majority of it's believers Christianity is a very benign faith that is mostly a force for good. The same cannot be said of Islam…especially in the backward areas of the world that spawned it and were it is most commonly practiced. Christianity evolved past it's barbaric past, while Islam is morally stuck in the dark ages. (and this commentary is coming from a non-Christian. I feel that my lack of any specific faith puts me in a good position to look at different religions from an un-biased starting point)

        TR

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Danny-Browning/1666222445 Danny Browning

          So now an “unregistered guest” can't have a argument? It allowed me to log in with Facebook, so I logged in with Facebook. This site's comment rules, not mine.

          Scriptures are open to interpretation, and thus, abuse. We have seen it in Christianity numerous times, which lo and behold, arose over 1000 years before Islam. And 1000 years ago, there were numerous abuses that occurred in the name of Christianity, until the moderate Christians continued to grow in number and cast out those that would bend scripture to their own designs.

          We can only hope that by learning from the darkness that was at one point Christianity, we can have the moderates of Islam push the religion in a direction that is less abusive and more in line with their beliefs. Reinforcing the teachings of the extremist Muslims does not allow that to happen and prevents the moderates from gaining traction.

          • Common Sense

            I guess you can have an argument. Too bad it's idiotic and irrelevant. The fact that you submit that Christianity “arose over 1000 years before Islam” is 100% proof positive that you are full of shit and talking out of your cowardly, liberal ass.

            In the words of John Adams (in his HBO miniseries), “I have nothing more to say to you, good day, sir.”

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Danny-Browning/1666222445 Danny Browning

            I'm sorry, over 500 years before Islam.

            http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_and_when_did_Islam_arise

            And what do you know, about 500 years ago Christianity had the Spanish Inquisition.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

            Dang you history and your facts!

          • Common Sense

            LOL, wiki.

          • TheDickNixon

            OOOH the inquisition. Maybe next you can bring up the Crusades.

          • Kingfisher

            Ooh, the Spanish Inquisition.

            You do realize their chief weapon is surprise. (/MP)

            Anyway, the Spanish Inquisition is nothing compared to the atrocities committed by:

            - Benito Mussolini
            - Joseph Stalin
            - Pol Pot
            - Mao Tse-Tung

            All atheists.

            Damn history and facts!

            P.S. I didn't need to find these in Wikipedia.

          • TheDickNixon

            NO ONE EXPECTS The Spanish Inquisition.

            Haven't seen that one in a while. Still one of their funniest skits.

          • http://www.wordaroundthenet.com Christopher Taylor

            What, you figure there's some magical five century mark where religions go nuts? Islam was hacking the heads off its enemies, mistreating women horribly and generally acting barbaric from the first convert Muhammad fooled.

          • Trench_Raider

            So now an “unregistered guest” can't have a argument? It allowed me to log in with Facebook, so I logged in with Facebook. This site's comment rules, not mine

            We have problems here with drive by trolling by people abusing the anonymity of the 'net to cause trouble. Many are unregistered “guests” who seem to think that not having an accoutsomehow shields them from bans. So you will understand my questioning the motives of folks who post as “guests”. Yes, the problem lies with the posting rules here. I've been calling for them to be changed since the site adopted Disqus as the comments software.

            Oh by the by, Christianity does not predate Islam by “over a thousand years”. Christianity started in the first century AD and Islam was founded in the 7th century AD. So you are off by 400 years. Do you play as fast and loose with your facts in all your posts?

            In any event I agree that Christianity is a more evolved faith than is Islam. Or should I say you agree with me? One can only hope that some time in the future Islam will crawl out of the dark ages and become as benign and benefitial a faith as it's older cousin.

            This of course does not change my point that Islam as it is currently practiced by the majority of it's believers (especially in the backward regions of it's origin) is the most bigoted, barbaric, and intolerant of today's major religions and that leftist support for it is amazingly inconsistant with their stated world view. Of course you more or less supported my point in your above post. Thanks for backing me up.

            TR

          • mightysamurai

            Scriptures are open to interpretation, and thus, abuse. We have seen it in Christianity numerous times, which lo and behold, arose over 1000 years before Islam. And 1000 years ago, there were numerous abuses that occurred in the name of Christianity, until the moderate Christians continued to grow in number and cast out those that would bend scripture to their own designs.

            Except this isn't an issue of people “bending scripture to their own designs”. Islam commands its followers to murder and enslave non-believers. It commands muslims to wage wars of aggression against their neighbors and forcibly convert them to Islam. It commands muslims to make non-believers within their territory into second-class citizens. It commands muslims to oppress women.

            The problem with Islam is not that some people interpret it wrongly, purposely or otherwise. The ones screaming for the heads of non-believers are the ones correctly interpreting the commandments of Islam. So what you're really arguing for is for muslims to stop believing in their own holy book. You want them to basically strike entire passages from the Koran and the Hadith and pretend they don't exist.

            Let me be clear, I don't have a problem with them doing that, and indeed I think it's the only thing that will allow us to avoid an eventual war on Islam itself. But if I had said that, you would have called me bigoted.

          • UFKA_Smithwick

            It is telling how when it comes to Christianity every liberal is an expert and has no problem listing every problem they see with that religion and picking it apart entirely.

            But when Islam is brought up immediately you have to be an Islamic scholar to know what various edicts mean and they can only be mentioned in context and even then they don't really mean all that mean stuff they appear to mean.

            It's an amazing double standard.

          • Mahatma

            Danny- since you are new, a little poop on the 'Raider. He works at a prison and feels the need to act as playground monitor here. He cannot tolerate different opinions. He has been banned from RWN, a fact he tries to ignore. So pay him little attention.

      • blkdragon

        “Not all of Islam believes in the right violations you say. Just like not all of Christianity believes that homosexuality is a sin.”

        Having read and studied both the Bible and the koran… The first are not muslim, and the second are not Christian.

    • Martha

      “hostorical”?

      • Trench_Raider

        Look down at your keyboard.

        Were is the “O” key in relation to the “I” key?

        Now look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself “Why do I think I can make a meaningful point out of a typo”?

        As always child, you are a complete blithering idiot and troll.

        FOAD

        TR

        • Martha

          Actually,trenchie-troll, it shows how little thought or attention goes into your posts.

          • blkdragon

            You can't even insure you are typing the right key and you are accusing him of lack of thought and attention?

          • Martha

            trenchie-troll – oh, yes. He hasn't had an original thought for ten years.

          • Common Sense

            Says the fool who posts the exact same post over and over and over…

  • Jane

    A lot of folks, a growing number, in fact believe that faith in sky gods is, if not ignorant, certainly irrational.

  • TheDickNixon

    flagged for bigotry

    • Jane

      flagged for hilarity.

      • TheDickNixon

        Hamas Jane. Ground Zero Mosque Iman Jane.

  • Common Sense

    So jane and guess are both ignorant liberal fools. That makes two. Any others?

    • Jane

      There's a good case to be made for the absurdity of christian, Islam and all other Sky God beliefs.

      • Common Sense

        There's a good case to be made for your irrelevant, ignorance spewing self as well.

        • Jane

          Yes there most certainly is.

      • mightysamurai

        There's an even better case to be made for the absurdity of materialist atheism.

        • Jane

          yes there is.

          • mightysamurai

            So you admit that the case for religion is stronger than the case for atheism. Thank you for conceding the argument.

          • Jane

            Yes….However, it's still a weak case.

          • mightysamurai

            For atheism? Yes, I agree. No wonder you guys are a perpetual minority.

  • Trench_Raider

    That's heated rhetoric designed to offend the majority opinion on this site. That's called “trolling” and is flagged as such.

    You need to have this post thrown back in your face the next time you whine about supposed “bigotry”.

    TR

    • Jane

      No, it's a rational response to the post I was answering. Good try PoliceBoy.

      • mightysamurai

        Ridiculing someone's beliefs with terms like “sky gods” is not a rational response. It is an attempt to elicit an emotional reaction and start a flame war. You are a troll, by definition.

        • Jane

          Common term applied to monotheistic religions of the middle east.

          • Trench_Raider

            Allow me to let you in on a secret, Son. (and I refer to you as such because female web trolls are extremely rare so i doubt you are a rel woman…and we have a history of trolls pretending to be women on this site) It may come as a suprise to you, but I'm not a relgious person either. But I respect those of the Christian faith and I don't feel the need to stroke my own ego by coming to a site were the majority are Christian and posting things to irritate them. But then I'm a decent being an not a troll….unlike you.

            Why do you post here anyway?

            TR

          • Jane

            Ah…poor wittle Twench Waider got his panties in a bunch???

            I respect all people of faith. But once it is declared that “Islam is not a religion” or that it is somehow a less authentic religion than christianity, I think religion is on the table.

            And I doubt the other little boys here need your defense of the faith. But maybe they do…you simple lackluster hack.

          • Common Sense

            Liar. You only respect your own self-centered self and the few that actually share your narrow and bigoted view of the world. I actually feel sorry for you.

          • mightysamurai

            No, child, it isn't. Unless by “common term” you mean “common insult used by arrogant and bigoted atheists”.

        • Trench_Raider

          Indeed.

          “Jane” is clearly trolling. He/she comes here insulting the whole community, sprewing out meaningless leftist talking points, and then caps it all off by posting offensive and insulting anti-religious crap. That's classic troll behavior.

          TR

          • Jane

            So this is what it looks like when a scared little boy runs from a discussion with wet panties. Cry “Troll”.

            Continue to spew your meaningless right wing talking points.

            And responding to a claim that islam isn't a religion by discussing religion is hardly “anti-religious”.

            Now go home little boy. School is over.

          • TheDickNixon

            The school bell rang for you last night. Remember Jane? Hamas and the Ground Zero iman?

            P3WNED by Nixon.

          • Jane

            I keep waiting for any evidence of a “discussion here”. Whenever I or others actually post proof or evidence, you folks run.

            I'm not surprised. Bigots get scared like that.

            Why not just leave the muslims in America alone. They are good, hardworking citizens. As good and hard working as you and me. They may have silly religious beliefs like christians, but that's america for you.

          • TheDickNixon

            You mean silly beliefs like Hamas not being a terrorist group?

          • mightysamurai

            Whenever I or others actually post proof or evidence, you folks run.

            What proof or evidence have you provided? The only thing I recall is the “example” of an alleged woman you claim appeared on FOX News and allegedly said her alleged “organization” would allegedly fight to stop the Cordoba mosque from being built.

            That is not proof. Of anything.

          • Trench_Raider

            Hehe.

            Me scared of a troll? Now that's amusing. Running from a discussion? Care to count how many posts I have in this thread? You call that “running”?

            You are a fool, little boy, and your nasty tone in this post is proof positive that you are just here to ridicule, talk smack, and troll rather than actually discuss.

            Finally, trying to steal my own cath phrases is lame in the extreme. How does it feel to be a failure at something as simple as trolling?

            FOAD, child.

            TR

          • Mahatma

            “FOAD, child”- Grand Wizard, TR

            Be careful trenchie. You are dancing close to banning, AGAIN. Hehehe.

          • Trench_Raider

            You are right to laugh, troll boy. because you see to get banned here to have to actually do something wrong. Unlike you (who as a troll and sock puppet are basicly breaking the rules of the site ever day you post here) I'm following all the posted rules of the site.

            So I feel pretty safe and your claim is pretty damned silly.

            I would ask if you have anything productive to add to the discussion, but we both know the answer to that one….

            TR

          • http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

            RACIST, the day you school anyone is the day after Hell freezes over and you debate Mike Tyson to a win!

    • Trench_Raider

      Well, well, well.

      The troll got his/her/it's post deleted. Looks like he was wrong when he stated that he was being “rational”. Speaking of rational, you have to love the defensive melt-down that he had on this thread. That's when the troll status really comes out. You push just a tiny bit and the idiots will last out and get all snarky like that.

      Spotted another one.

      TR

  • http://www.facebook.com/DJRogue1974 Patrick Cobbett Gastgeb

    WELL SAID!

  • http://www.facebook.com/DJRogue1974 Patrick Cobbett Gastgeb

    Well Said!

  • Martha

    Liberals do not side with Islem over Christianity – not to worry. Liberals side with the Christ on behalf of humanity.

  • Knighterrant

    As a liberal I object to all religions that use God as an excuse for tribalism and to legitimize hatred of others. That includes many Muslims, a large number of Mormons, and several evangelical Christians.

    What Muslims do to other Muslims and Christians do to other Christians is of little interest to me, as long as it stays within their religion. But when people of faith try to impose their religious prejudices and malice on others I will fight back. Within the United States it is almost always fundamentalist Christians who try to impose their narrow world view on the greater society, who want everyone to hate who they hate and see as evil those they believe are evil.

    I have lived long enough to recognize the current anti-Islam fever is just a repeat of the anti-Jewish and anti-Catholic hatreds of previous decades. It was just as detestable then as it is now.

    • TheDickNixon

      “I will fight back.”

      Well, what are you going to do? Nixon will wait.

    • TheDickNixon

      Nixon is waiting Rambo. WTF are you going to do?

    • mightysamurai

      What Muslims do to other Muslims and Christians do to other Christians is of little interest to me, as long as it stays within their religion. But when people of faith try to impose their religious prejudices and malice on others I will fight back.

      If you really believe that, you're totally deluded.

      Religions are, above all else, a system of moral teachings. And the very purpose of a system of moral teachings is to spread them. If your moral code leads you to believe something is wrong, it is your right and duty to work to convince people towards your viewpoint. Otherwise, what's the point of holding those moral views in the first place?

      Within the United States it is almost always fundamentalist Christians who try to impose their narrow world view on the greater society, who want everyone to hate who they hate and see as evil those they believe are evil.

      Yeah, how dare those uppity Christians try to teach their moral viewpoints to others! Those evil bastards should be rounded up and drowned in ammonia!

  • Martha

    Liberals do not side with Islam over Christianity – not to worry. Liberals follow the teachings of the Christ, and side with humanity.

    • Common Sense

      Oh, so I guess Christ was a socialist who believed in the redistribution of wealth and the equal sharing of misery forced onto people by the hand of government?

      Yeah, you're a fool.

      • Martha

        Well, the Christ was certainly a socialist who believed in the distribution of wealth. He knew we were born to suffer. And he said to render to Ceasar the things that are Ceasars. So . . .

        • Common Sense

          What's your kool-aid laced with, Martha? Some mind altering drug or just plain stupidity?

          Christ most certainly DID NOT believe in the redistribution of wealth. Your suggestion that he did is a down and out lie.

          And it's spelled, “Caesar.” Sheesh.

          • Martha

            Camel meet needle. Rich man meet heaven.

          • Common Sense

            Reading comprehension. You should try it sometime.

        • http://www.patriotpost.com bthewolf

          What does that have to do with Socialism, he's telling his followers to pay their taxes, not surrender all their wealth to Rome, for redistribution, talk about taking The Word out of context!!! ROFLMAO you really need to read the whole passage again or better yet the whole Bible!!

    • UFKA_Smithwick

      I don't recall any teachings in the Bible advocating government theft of private property.

      There are many for individuals being charitable and helping the poor.

      But I can't think of any extolling the virtues of a compulsory welfare state.

      Could you list a few?

  • Martha

    Liberals don't side with Islam over Christianity – not to worry. Liberals follow the teachings of the Christ and side with humanity.

    • Common Sense

      Posting the same damn ignorant comment multiple times isn't going to persuade anyone any faster. But you get an A for effort.

  • Rose

    Liberals DO side with Islam – two Dictatorial philosophies obviously have much more in common than either have in common with Conservatives, Christians and Jews. Especially they have common enemies.

    What has bondage to do with Freedom?

    However, their symbiotic relationship has more reminders of S&M, than anything else.

  • dougschexnayderphdret

    QURAN…EDIT, THEN BURN BABY BURN

    The massive outrage of intolerant liberals and cult of allah fawners concerning a tiny American christian church burning a few Qurans has brought up a great point about the Quran.
    The offensive murderous medieval sections of the Quran (added later) that give CAUSE for worldwide murder of innocents for at least a generation should NOW be edited out.

    A worldwide committee of top islamists should immediately convene to do this obvious editing of the Quran so the rest of the world does not have to suffer the mindless terror via “misinterpretation” anymore.

    Why has this obvious scrubbing NOT already been done?

    Why have you not heard ANY islamic voice clamoring for this obvious long overdue move?

    We should ignore the lies like, “its radical islam, its the jihadists”. Until the Quran is edited ALL ISLAM IS RADICAL.

    Over a billion cult of allah members and not a peep about removing or editing that (supposedly) few sections that are “misunderstood”.
    What does that tell you?

    Is it not true that centuries ago all Qurans were burned except one version so as not to confuse followers?
    Well, here we are again. There are NO excuses.
    You now have that uneasy gut feeling, don't you?

    http://conservablogs.com/theconservativecrawfish

  • Proud Infidel

    Ms. Sharon, Fellow Posters, the liberals obviously don't know themselves, they can't hold on to the same thought for more than 30 seconds at most before they go into a spitting, drooling, infantile, “Blame Bush” hissyfit that would make a bawling toddler with a soiled diaper look tame. I present our resident moonbats' droppings here as clearcut evidence.

    Maybe it's their mentality, not unlike a delinquent grade schooler's. They simply spit off personal ad hominem attacks like a child saying anything he or she can to make someone else mad and get any kind of attention they can, just look at Jane and Martha's trollings, even though I'm quite certain one of them is the other's sockpuppet.

    In short, they don't know themselves, other than they it just makes them feel intellectually superior to others, especially the dropouts!

  • David

    A coyote will fight you when cornered and when you get too close to a bear with cubs, you are in trouble; but now you take a liberal, they don't need a reason to swear and malign your name… it's in their nature, if they were any different they would be a republican or a tea party member. They will sooner side with a “butt in the air” “cut-throat” “woman beating” “child-killing” Godless muslim than to admit that they were wrong about George Bush, and their arrogant foolish pride has, is and will continue to get America in more trouble than we can handle.

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