We need to remember that the actual “Death Panel” is the WHOLE Obamacare system. What kills people in single payer/socialist medicine systems is the rationing/waiting lists and lack of innovation.

The clowns (politician and gov employees) would not have the gut to actually send some to tell you that you are slated to die – its just done by the use of formulas, regulations, etc that set up who gets priority on the various waiting lists.

The closest approximation to that you might see in the bill would be a group called “Comparative Outcome Boards” or “Health Comminsioners”. Those will be the guys who are empowered to begin the regulations that deny treatments or start rationing.

The whole thing about “end of life” counseling being a paid treatment in HR 3200 is what people usally fixate on but that not the “Death Panel” – again, the WHOLE SCHEME is a virtual death panel but no such board ever exists or notification ever given by a person in the Democrats or other countries government run systems.

Conservatives need to understand this and explain it in this terms or elses its easy for liberals to dismiss the “end of life” counseling as simply paying for a treatment – that just a small, small part of the whole death panel government HC system.

Politicians will always cling to the fiction that “nobody will be denied effective treatment” by simply placing you on a rationing/waiting list without explaination from your provider except maybe “those are the rules”

They will just confuse the issue with clever formulas, boards, etc that will be sent to providers in the form of regulations, rules, treatment protocols, etc that force of law will compell them to follow – you will never see a human face to attribute the denial to as its systemic.

And of course, certain treatments for whatever reason will simply be refused to EVERYONE by the system by being declared “experimental” or “not cost effective”

Which is the real crime/abuse of this so-called “reform” – what should be a personal/family decision between you and your HC provider (maybe at worst add in your HC insurance company for the covering payments they may provide if you choose to have one) suddenly becomes a matter of politics/collective decsion. You being a lobby of one have virtual zero say in the matter and whats worse the provider and the insurance have MUCH more accountability to the goverment then you the patient. Basically, it will be an ugly lobbying food fight between every organized interest group in the country to get the government to fund treatments that benefit their special interest. The rich and the politically conntected/popular interests will benefit – the weak, politically unpopular groups, and unorganized (that is to say the common man) will get the short end every time with little recourse. And of course, the rich and politically connected will be able to call in favors to “jump ahead” in priority of treatment as they do in Canada, GB, Cuba etc (so animals will always be more equal then others).

In our current HC system, since you still retain individual choices, you always have options for treatment or payment. You can change insurance companies, doctors, hospitals, etc. You can sue too. You can self-pay. You have have a large degree of control.

In the new government run HC system (yes, with or without a “government option” its still government run HC/Nationalization since the Feds will dictate you participate by buying insurance to there specifications, they set all the rules, and fund the scam thru new taxes and subsidies) you have no recourses except politics. You are enslaved more then ever to DC. Which is the goal – more power for liberal politics.

To remain a free and independent people this MUST be defeated.

We need to remember that the actual “Death Panel” is the WHOLE Obamacare system. What kills people in single payer/socialist medicine systems is the rationing/waiting lists and lack of innovation.

Posted by wylie_e_coyote

2009-10-30 19:49:50

Wrong. What we need to remember is that "death panel" is some irrational shortcut that seeks to short circuit any discussion of health care reform.

You have no proof of 'death panel'…other than your own paranoia.

Is this dog available online anywhere? I would "try" to read some of it but, like all legalese it would soon render my mind inactive and I would be asleep with the D key lodged in my eye. Yes rmiller the death panel words do not appear but, the scheme is paramount to the rationing that will have to occur. Lee did a very good job here dicing your arguments and I like it – other socialist countries that have this "mess" use OUR technology and methods and devise little on their own and we pay the bills.

The world would love it if we went socialist and our economy went in the crapper up until the handouts and America helping them in crisis was a memory. A lot of countries depend on us for defense AND the pocketbook is running out. This turkey of a bill is going to be the slippery slope leading to that very end. Just do a Cloward/Piven on us and make it so costly that the dollar crashes and then we are picking shit with the rest of the chickens. Is that what you really want rmiller????

You have no proof of 'death panel'

Except for history and basic economics. Sorry, but unless you can disprove those (and you socialists have fared quite poorly at that task in the last, oh, two hundred years), there's going to be people de-facto sentenced to death because it's too costly for the State to cure them – ergo, death panels.

Wrong.

Right.

See that, Rmiller? I can be a mindless contrarian too.

Rmiller nails it but you folks are mindlessly following nonsense death panel theories and denigrating our elected leaders.

The bill is online if you have enough sense to google for it.

I am embarrased to have been a republican when I was young and ignorant. A bit of travel and a college degree and suddenly the world is not to simple. 20 tears later at the job and making good money, house in an expensive city with lots of equity. Life is grand.

But happened to you folks? A black person stepped on your toes and you never got over it.

As for the video. Where do you get the idea that no one has read the bill? Fom your backside like the rest of your idiocy? Lobbyists ARE k-street whores but the congressman never named anyone in particular. To claim he called a woman such a name is par for the course in your anal-ysis.

What a pathetic video.

Actually, Cavuto had a guy on his show that is the worlds fastest reader. He read the bill in a little over an hour.

And for the death panel bit, America has a 90% cure rate for prostate cancer. Canada is at about 60%. Britain falls in at 40%. When our numbers match those of the other socialized medicine nations will you admit that the Democratic healthcare reform was a death sentence for many Americans? Will Alan Grayson claim that Democrats only want us to die?

Yes there is. It says a new burocracy will be formed to decide what practices doctors can offer. Say hello to health rationing and dealth panels. Not only is it in there if you read it, but the "reform" cannot exist without it being there. A govt program that gives something requires a person or people to decides who will be givin. Dont be stupid.

Posted by tblrk2006

2009-10-31 09:12:21

Your arguement is that the health care professionals are going to betray their oath just because Dems might be in charge? That doctors are going to be supporting 'death panels'?

If I were to turn your arguement around….you advocated that doctors only support right wing medicine.

Explain to me what that would be.